Here are my thoughts on /y/a/o/i/ "yuletide," fandom, and anti-Semitism

[thuviaptarth]

Some of you have seen some of this argument already, and some of you haven't, and my feelings about arguments made on both sides are mixed, so I'm going to start with a recap and continue with tons of exposition. Those of you who haven't skipped out already, please bear with me.

mamadeb posted a complaint about Yuletide signups going live on Sukkot, a Jewish holiday. I read her tone as intended to be humorous, in a passive-aggressive way, but other people--including several on her friends list--read it as accusatory. She's said in comments that she didn't intend to accuse the Yuletide mods of deliberate malice, just carelessness. In the comments, but not in the original post, she also expresses a wish that the ficathon had a "more neutral name." In addition to the arguments in her comments, her post got picked up by Fandom Wank.

I am disturbed by some of the objections to mamadeb, and particularly by the nature of some of the responses on Fandom Wank. I'd like to make it clear that I'm not bothered by people who disagree with mamadeb's initial complaint. I do not, in fact, agree with her complaint about the timing of the signups. The signups were pre-announced and there's a two-week signup period with no penalty for signing up late in the period or reward for signing up early. The signup period is two weeks long precisely to allow people who have conflicts during that a period a long enough opening that they can find time to sign up.

I also do not criticize people who read Mama Deb's tone as accusatory; as I said, I read it as intended to be humorous, but also, as I implied by "passive-aggressive," as not quite coming off that way. Several of her initial commenters suggested steps she could take to make sure Yuletide nominations didn't conflict with Jewish holidays in the future, and her dismissal of all of these did indeed rub me wrong.

Finally, I do not agree with her dismissive attitude towards paganism and Christian holidays in the comments. She's not the spokesperson I'd have picked, and I am probably not the one she would have picked, but nevertheless I am speaking out about the few items on which I do agree with her.

I am disturbed by the number of people who disclaim a connection between the term "Yuletide" and Christianity, or for that matter between "Christmas" and Christianity; by the initial Fandom Wank post's cavalier attitude towards the possibility of a Jewish complaint; and by the outright anti-Semitism from some of the Fandom Wank commenters. (Yes, I know, they're Fandom Wank. They're still part of fandom.)

To elaborate:

1. Yuletide and Christianity
   I am aware that "Yule" was originally a pagan term and it has been reclaimed by many neo-pagans for the winter solstice holiday. However, for several centuries now, it has been associated with the Christmas holiday, and the name of the Yuletide challenge is taken from a Christmas carol. I realize that for many people in the West, especially but not exclusively Christians, Christmas has become a secular holiday because it is associated with their national culture (hi, guys, I've been in the UK in December, you cannot convince me I am being American-centric here) and because it is recognized as a holiday by their secular governments. I know Jews and members of other religious minorities in the West who are not bothered by the terms "Yuletide" or "Secret Santa" and who have Christmas trees (and who set up huge fandom-crossing obscure fandom ficathons!) and who distinguish the cultural practice of Christianity from the religious practice of Christianity. I am not one of them, partly because so few Christians seem to have an understanding of Christianity as a cultural practice, or the ways in which they receive the privilege of a cultural default, even when they themselves are not religious or choose atheism or a different religion. Why should they have this understanding? Privilege is the headache they don't know they don't have.
   
   I am going to be very explicit about this: I'm not just talking about this ficathon. I'm not asking for the name "Yuletide" to be changed. I think that would be a huge headache, to begin with, and at this point I even have positive associations with the name, because of my happy involvement with the challenge. But I am saying that "Yuletide"--whether in reference to this challenge or in general--is not nondenominational. It is not religiously neutral. It is not broadly inclusive.
   
   And really, the important part of that last paragraph for me is the "in general." This is not about an attitude specific to fandom. This is about an attitude in the cultures from which Western media fans come.
   
   And the amount of resistance to this concept--that Christianity is not everyone's default and it is not a neutral position--is what disturbs me in many responses.
   
   
2. I get the sense in this thread that some people think it's not really anti-Semitism if it just affects some Jews, not all of them. To be quite honest, this seems to me about the same reasoning as saying that forbidding French schoolgirls to wear veils isn't anti-Muslim because it only affects the really devout ones, or that forbidding black women in public offices in Florida to wear braids or dreads isn't racist because some black women like straightening their hair.
   
   No, not all Jews turn off their computers on the Sabbath or on Sukkot. I don't. But that doesn't mean I am unaffected by the mockery of traditional Jewish customs.
   
   
3. Several of the comments on Fandom Wank, including the original post, were not so much anti-Semitic as Christian-centric. This is still, frankly, a problem. An inclusive society depends on recognizing that others are not like us and that their communities, folkways, traditions, and identities are valuable to them and innately worth preserving. The failure to realize this, or to recognize specific instances of exclusion, is privilege in action; it is generally motivated by ignorance rather than malice, but the ignorance is still hurting other people.
   
   Comments I would place in this category include:
   
   
   
   
   • If mamadeb is so upset and bothered by Yuletide signups beginning on Sukkot (and Yuletide's name), why is she even bothering with Yuletide?
     
     If it bothers her that much, then why be a part of it?
     
     As at least two subsequent commenters did point out, it's not unreasonable to criticize an institution which excludes you.
     
     
   • Uhm, just curious, does anyone know why mamadeb has an issue with the term "Yuletide"? (No sarcasm, I really do want to know.) and several of the responses, expressing disbelief, contempt, indifference to the exclusion of Judaism and other religions, and--this may be my favorite--the idea that since the Christmas carol the challenge name came from was originally a pagan Welsh hymn, it's not really Christian, even though Wales was converted to Christianity in about the fifth century of the Common Era (a fact I found by about five minutes' Googling, and if you don't know what the Common Era is, you too can Google to find out) and the hymn has been used as a Christmas carol throughout the English-speaking world for at least two hundred years now.
     
   
   
   
4. ETA 9:17pm: I'm leaving this up because people responded to it, and it affected my mood, but mayatawi offered an explanation for the exchange here, so I retract the accusation of anti-Semitism. I still think the conversation was ill-advised, but I don't think there was any malice involved.END ETA
   
   Comments which passed right over Christian-centric to anti-Semitic came up in this thread:
   
   

   
   panthea: Uh, at a guess... because most non-Jews have never even heard of Sukkot, let alone know when it is?
   
   Mamadeb waved the same persecution flag when sign-ups for the Muskrat Jamboree (tiny tiny slash con in Boston this year) opened on... some other Jewish holiday. I wanna say Rosh Hashanah, but that's just because it's fun to say.
   
   mindset: My non-Jewish boyfriend's favorite Jewish holiday is Sukkot, just because he enjoys pronouncing it "suck it". He is a great big silly. :)

   
   
   Do I have to explain what's wrong with this? Do I really have to explain what's so insulting about someone not just saying that Jewish holidays aren't well-known in the West, but implying that they're not worth knowing? Do I have to explain why it's exoticizing and insulting and just generally not okay to make fun of the name of Jewish holidays, or to take a holiday name and turn it into a sexual slur/insult? Do I really, really, really have to explain why someone saying "Suck it" instead of "Sukkot" isn't being a great big silly, he's being an asshole, and so is the person quoting this with approval?
   
   Do I really?
   
   ETA 9:17pm: mayatawi offers an explanation for the exchange here, so I retract the accusation of anti-Semitism. I still think the conversation was ill-advised, but I don't think there was any malice involved.
   

Comments

[vaznetti]

I was going to make a much shorter post about this issue, but am tempted just to link to you here, except that I don't want to send trouble your way.

I was actually in tears on my couch last night, and this situation had a lot to do with it -- and that was without even reading the FW comments.

[thuviaptarth.livejournal.com]

I was hesitant to make this public because, yeah, I am afraid of the response. But I did make it public, in full knowledge it might get linked in metafandom or used as another example of wank in FW, so you know --I decided it was important enough to post publically. So feel free to link.

popfantastic also had a good post on the subject, and I know kita0610 and chopchica have also posted.

I'm glad you found the post worthwhile, because I was worried about the response from other Jews as much as anyone else, to be honest. I mean, I think that mamadeb's complaint about the timing is mistaken, and that she didn't pick the best way to make the complaint (which is an entirely separate issue from whether the complaint is valid), but at the same time the response to her post is bringing out some real ugliness. And I was & am afraid that saying that I don't support Deb entirely would turn off some people, while having an issue with the non-neutrality of yuletides, santas, and Christmas trees would turn off the rest.

[giandujakiss.livejournal.com]

Thank you - I don't know anything about Yuletide or this particular dust-up, but I do know that I've argued myself sick with some people over whether Christmas is a Christian holiday, or whether Santa is a neutral symbol. Oy.

[thuviaptarth.livejournal.com]

Yeah, there's another FW poster who says she keeps telling people she thinks Christmas will be an entirely secular holiday in another fifty years, and she doesn't understand why people of all religions keep objecting to this.

[boniblithe.livejournal.com]

Do I really, really, really have to explain why someone saying "Suck it" instead of "Sukkot" isn't being a great big silly, he's being an asshole, and so is the person quoting this with approval?

OMFG. Anyone you would have to explain that to isn't someone that is worth the time or trouble.

[thuviaptarth.livejournal.com]

Thanks, sweetie. I don't know if you've been following, but one of the posters did volunteer a comment with an explanation which mitigated things a little for me. Link in main post.

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

An inclusive society depends on recognizing that others are not like us and that their communities, folkways, traditions, and identities are valuable to them and innately worth preserving.

Yes, this. "You're just like me" and "I treat everybody just like me" misses the point. Judaism is not a subset of Christianity. You can't just say "Judeo-Christian" if what you really mean is "Christian, and I'm sure the Jews would agree with me."

I am beginning to wonder if explaining to people why they shouldn't be offended is such a rhetorical landmine that people just shouldn't try. It seems that 9 out of 10 fandom kerfuffles include people explaining why things aren't offensive and, in the process, being much more offensive than the original comment.

[thuviaptarth.livejournal.com]

Occasionally I am tempted to make a post entitled "I am not a Jewish Christian." Starting with Judaism != Christianity-minus and you don't actually know much about Judaism if you've just read the Old Testament.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

Yours is actually the first post I've seen on this, and I am in exactly the same boat: positive associations with the Yuletide challenge, but the term and the date around which it's organized aren't mine. I have been pretty well insulated from ignoro-Semitic stuff in fandom, and it's sad to see that was because I was playing in a limited corner.

Here, have a tiny Jewish fist of support.

[chopchica.livejournal.com]

If you're interested in reading some more posts about this, I'm about to compile a list of links of all the ones I've seen over the past few days. I also have a few other posts and links under the tag "judaism" in my journal.

[snacky]

First, I apologize if anything I said on FW was offensive to you. Second, thank you for this post - as is always the case with posts of this nature, it makes me stop and re-examine myself and my thoughts about privelege.

Third, and finally, I am still puzzled by the idea that Yuletide is seen as "not having a Christmas theme." I mean, it's about gift giving. On Christmas. I don't get it.

[chopchica.livejournal.com]

Speaking as somebody who was extremely offended by some of the comments I saw on FW, I just wanted to let you know that none of them were yours. In fact, I thought you were pretty awesome for being the first person to point out that of course Yuletide and other Sesa ficathons are Christmas-based.

Mocking the wankee for being *silly* and mocking her (and by extension, many other Jews) for being *Jewish* are very different things, and you never crossed that line. Thank you for that.

[loligo.livejournal.com]

Oh, wow. I realize that fandom_wank is not generally known for good manners or good taste, but I'm really surprised that the thread quoted in number 4 wasn't followed by dozens of "oh no, you did *not* just say that" comments.

[thuviaptarth.livejournal.com]

It wasn't followed by any when I last checked. The poster did respond in comments here, though (link edited into original post).

[vee-fic.livejournal.com]

I agree that a great many F_W comments went from clumsy to insulting in about 3 seconds. (I also found the threads surprisingly thoughtful on related matters, e.g. how people manage the tension between religious obligation and personal desires; how people manage the tension of others who share their religion but interpret it differently. For all F_W is officially about the mock, there's quite a bit of interesting -- often personal and anecdotal -- debate that develops after the initial point-and-laugh.) Really, though, the whole thing seems to come back to one of the bingo cards, doesn't it? "I don't like your tone."

I don't like the OP's tone either, and I think she shot her argument in the foot by pleading logical inconsistency (in her characterization of Christian holidays). But while I'm perfectly content to see her mocked for passive-aggressive behavior, the neutrality-defense of the word "Yuletide" is... the kind of logic that isn't.

I think it's a much more interesting -- also scarier, of course -- question when you ask, "Yuletide isn't a neutral word. What then?" I think the F_W threads are probably not the place to expect that kind of discussion, but I'm not sure I've seen that discussion anywhere else.

[orca-girl.livejournal.com]

I think it's a much more interesting -- also scarier, of course -- question when you ask, "Yuletide isn't a neutral word. What then?"

"Solstice", I think, is the generally-acknowledged winner amongst the struggling-pagan set. That is, many pagans say the heck with it and embrace/re-appropriate "Yule" (I do), but many others can't get past it having been co-opted by Christianity, and kind of just go with "the Solstice" instead.

But neo-pagan solstice-celebration practices that include gift giving are... well, look, they're pretty much just appropriating the gift-giving bits from the wider-cultural (and in many cases for individual pagans, family-traditional) Christmas holidays. The celebration of the Darkest Day *itself* has no gifty associations.

So you could *call* it a Solsticathon, but seriously, man, if the reason you're doing it is gift-exchange... it still ain't "neutral" and never is going to be. *shrug* I don't even think that it'd be successfully neutral if the go-live date of stories was the 21st rather than the blindingly-obvious 25th.

I prefer the suggestion of rydra_wong and others, which is that "what then?" is just admitting that you want to do something gifty around the midwinter holidays because has strong fuzzy-comfort associations for you, and that's that. Own to the fact that it's not neutral. Expend your energy on, "I'd like you to feel welcomed by it, is there a way to do that?" And indeed, own to what you are and aren't willing to compromise on. (Maybe you're not willing to compromise on the name -- fine. I get that and even agree with it. Maybe you're a little more willing to compromise on the dates -- which goes back to the OP and the problem that she didn't actually contact the organizers to alert them to the conflict of the sign-up go-live date and the Sukkot holiday. Won't know if there could be more inclusionary compromise if you don't ask.)

[jacquez.livejournal.com]

...yeah. I hadn't read the F_W threads, because F_W makes my head explode, so. But the whole thing brings to mind the miscegenation issue in HP a few months back, where the way someone said something is taken as an excuse for (a) dismissing their entire issue and (b) treating them shamefully.

I didn't and don't agree with how Deb presented her issue, but that doesn't mean the issue itself is invalid. (And some of the revolting responses seem to me to indicate that, Yuletide aside, anti-Semitism in fandom is alive and well.)

[thuviaptarth.livejournal.com]

Thanks for all your comments on this; I've noticed them in a bunch of places, and they were really heartening.

[chopchica.livejournal.com]

I am going to be very explicit about this: I'm not just talking about this ficathon. I'm not asking for the name "Yuletide" to be changed. I think that would be a huge headache, to begin with, and at this point I even have positive associations with the name, because of my happy involvement with the challenge. But I am saying that "Yuletide"--whether in reference to this challenge or in general--is not nondenominational. It is not religiously neutral. It is not broadly inclusive.

And really, the important part of that last paragraph for me is the "in general." This is not about an attitude specific to fandom. This is about an attitude in the cultures from which Western media fans come.

And the amount of resistance to this concept--that Christianity is not everyone's default and it is not a neutral position--is what disturbs me in many responses.


Thank you so much for this eloquent and wonderful post.

[kestrelsan.livejournal.com]

Do I have to explain what's wrong with this? Do I really have to explain what's so insulting about someone not just saying that Jewish holidays aren't well-known in the West, but implying that they're not worth knowing?

I'm not actually that surprised that many people don't see the Christian basis for Yuletide's timing and focus, but I also think that cultural and historical understanding of religions in this country is one of the gaping holes of our education system. I might be a little biased about that *g*, but things like this don't really work to persuade me otherwise. And unfortunately, I'm not surprised some of the posters can't see that pointing out a religious bias isn't actually trashing or devaluing the thing itself, because yay fandom, over-dramatizer of everything.

In any case, I just wanted to say that this is a good post and I'm glad you made it public, and thank you for taking the time to link and summarize.

[thuviaptarth.livejournal.com]

If I see one more person try to "disprove" that Yuletide means Christmas because the term was originally a European pagan term, I may have to go back to characterizing Christianity as a "heretical offshoot of Judaism." After all, that's what it was originally.

[minim_calibre]

My fists of rage have been tearing at my hair over this.

I can understand someone not knowing, but what I can't understand is someone continuing to believe that not knowing is the ultimate defense, or that the proper response is to mock someones religion or religious practices.

You are, as ever, ferociously eloquent. Thank you for writing this.

[oyceter]

I don't have much more to say aside from "WORD" and "OMFG people! What is wrong with you? Haven't we been through this before? The correct response to a person from a minority saying they are offended is never 'you are making it up,' 'you are too paranoid,' 'haha you want the world to cater to you,' 'I have no idea what this is and I'm too lazy to do a five second Google,' etc."

[yhlee.livejournal.com]

Agreed.

[gwynnega]

Thanks for your cogent post. I might say more, but I can't stop boggling at those ignorant, insulting quotes from that FW thread...

[the_rck]

I've been trying to come up with a coherent response to this for the last few hours. I hadn't seen mamadeb's post or any responses to it apart from yours.

The Yuletide terminology *does* leave out those who aren't Christian or secular Christian. (I count myself in the latter category because I have some ethical difficulties with Original Sin and Christ as the only means of salvation. Plus, I was raised by atheist secular Christians who were appalled when I even considered being religiously Christian.) I'm sorry for that but also selfish enough that I don't want to give up on the exchange. I love the chance to write and the stories that come out of the exchange.

I suspect that this is another case of how privilege and prejudice are so bound into our cultural assumptions that, when we have privilege, we often can't even *see* it without having it pointed out (or, sometimes, not even when it is pointed out).

Is there anything that individual Yuletide participants can do to make non-Christians feel more welcome?

[thuviaptarth.livejournal.com]

I don't think Yuletide is a covert conversion mechanism, especially since both tzikeh and astolat, who co-founded it IIRC, are Jewish. ;) Seriously, I wouldn't participate if I felt like it were requiring some commitment to Christianity--as opposed to a commitment to gift-giving--from me.

Is there anything that individual Yuletide participants can do to make non-Christians feel more welcome?

Oh, that's an interesting question. Hmm. There are two things I can think of offhand:

(1) You know how Tzikeh did an announcement to remind people or inform that Yuletide *isn't* a slash challenge and that het and gen are welcome? If you're trying to recruit people on your f'list, mention that it's a holiday-organized ficathon, not a holiday-*themed* ficathon. They don't have to write about or request stories about Christmas.

I want to add that I do think it is perfectly okay for Christians to request stories about Christmas! In fact, if my recipient's heart is set on it, I hope she does specify that, because it wouldn't occur to me as a default. But I wouldn't want a Christmas-themed story myself, because it's just not holiday. And it's not a necessary requirement of the ficathon. I haven't included it in any of my stories, and I don't think any of the recipients minded. (Although two of the stories ended up relying extensively on Christian themes or imagery, because that's the way the fandoms went, but I knew that when I signed up for them.)

(2) is a corollary of (1): Don't assume your recipient wants a Christmas-themed story unless she says so.

[nzraya.livejournal.com]

This is a really great post.

I do part ways with you a bit on whether the Yuletide challenge is inherently Christian-centric -- yes, of course it's a "secret Santa" sign-up and the majority of people doing it celebrate Christmas and the timing is Christmas-based and so on, so in that sense -- much like school holidays -- it is. But I thought the mods picked the name "Yuletide" specifically, and explicitly, as a gesture away from a Christian-o-centric conception of the exchange and toward something older, less based in contemporary religious denominations and therefore more inclusive in tone. We all know the story about how the Christian appropriated Yuletide as a convenient time to celebrate Christmas (which is not thought to have been the time of year Jesus was actually born), so we apprehend the historicist, quasi-secular use of the original pagan name of the festival rather than the name given to it by its Christian colonizers as a way of saying "This fic exchange does not celebrate Jesus, it celebrates midwinter."

Anyway, that's how I perceived it, and I for one appreciated the gesture. I *don't* think "Yule" and "Yuletide" are Christian or even Christian-assimilated words, even if they're used in the occasional carol. They are generally used precisely to mark a difference/dissent from Christianity.

[jacquez.livejournal.com]

But I thought the mods picked the name "Yuletide" specifically, and explicitly, as a gesture away from a Christian-o-centric conception of the exchange ...

well, if they did that, why'd they use a Christmas carol lyric as the name? The url is "yuletidetreasure.org" and the header on the main page is "While we tell of Yuletide treasure". I'm not saying they did anything wrong, mind -- I'm just saying that *if* they intended to introduce distance from Christmas, maybe going with carol lyrics was not the most effective way to do it. (And it's kind of a big "if", isn't it?)

[parisntripfan.livejournal.com]

This is not in response to your post, it is more about the topic as a whole and how people are responding to it.

Well said. I haven't read to OP, but I did see the post on FandomWank and had to shake my head at many of the comments. It amazes and saddens me that group of people who seem to pride themselves on being inclusive are blind to chance some of the things they do might be exclusive.

And I agree with the comments about making fun or minimizing religious holidays is disturbing. It is one thing not to know about everything a religious holiday/obligation that is not yours, but to imply that it is not important - or to make fun of it, is something else. I mean, unless you spend time with people of a particular faith, you might not be aware of the peculiarities of that faith. You might not know that Jews who are keeping Kosher will not eat pork or that during Lent Catholics will not eat meat on Fridays. There is really nothing wrong with that, but if you make fun of it once you do know - then there is something wrong with it.

[minnow1212.livejournal.com]

>Several of the comments on Fandom Wank, including the original post, were not so much anti-Semitic as Christian-centric. This is still, frankly, a problem. An inclusive society depends on recognizing that others are not like us and that their communities, folkways, traditions, and identities are valuable to them and innately worth preserving. The failure to realize this, or to recognize specific instances of exclusion, is privilege in action; it is generally motivated by ignorance rather than malice, but the ignorance is still hurting other people.<

You may imagining me cheering for all your post, but particularly loudly here.

[mayatawi.livejournal.com]

I followed the link here from chopchica (just so, y'know, you don't think I'm coming after you in search of an argument).

First of all, as I said in my response to your comment in my post (which, wow, that's a tennis game of a clause right there), I don't know that I actually disagree with anything you said. I'm not saying Yuletide doesn't mean Christmas to most people; the original definition thing was more of a side note, and again, that's not a battle I'm willing to fight to the end in order to defend. I just like learning about words' original meanings.

I am going to be very explicit about this: I'm not just talking about this ficathon. I'm not asking for the name "Yuletide" to be changed. I think that would be a huge headache, to begin with, and at this point I even have positive associations with the name, because of my happy involvement with the challenge. But I am saying that "Yuletide"--whether in reference to this challenge or in general--is not nondenominational. It is not religiously neutral. It is not broadly inclusive.

I agree with this entirely, and I didn't intend to write anything in my post to imply otherwise. (Or, well, on re-reading, I kind of did. Again, though, not going to argue the etymology.)

Having said that, full disclosure time: I'm panthea on JF. And in all honesty, I'm not seeing what's anti-Semitic about that particular comment of mine. Perhaps it was worded badly, but I was in no way implying that Jewish holidays are not worth knowing about, and I'm not sure where you gathered that; I just don't think it's fair to expect people to know about them, and to therefore read potential malice into any scheduling conflicts. I lived with a fairly (though not strictly) observant Jewish woman for three and a half years, and as I said, I'd never heard of Sukkot before yesterday. And I wouldn't expect any random person to know the date of Eid al-Fitr either.

And I'm not sure if the "making fun" part was referring to me as well, but I wasn't making fun of Rosh Hashanah either. I just like the way it sounds.

(Incidentally, I don't know if this matters at all-- and it probably doesn't-- but it's worth mentioning that mindset is herself Jewish.)

[thuviaptarth.livejournal.com]

I followed the link here from chopchica (just so, y'know, you don't think I'm coming after you in search of an argument).

I also got to your post via chopchica, so I understand completely. ;) I also didn't know you were panthea--thank you for telling me--and didn't intend to stalk you, or passive-aggressively attract you to this post and blindside you with an attack, or anything. I'm not sure what I would have done differently if I'd known--probably not commented in your LJ at all--but I wasn't trying to harass you or pick a fight.

I'm not saying Yuletide doesn't mean Christmas to most people; the original definition thing was more of a side note, and again, that's not a battle I'm willing to fight to the end in order to defend. I just like learning about words' original meanings.

Then we're in agreement. I'd misunderstood you to mean that the original meaning outweighed, or erased, the later meaning.

And in all honesty, I'm not seeing what's anti-Semitic about that particular comment of mine. Perhaps it was worded badly, but I was in no way implying that Jewish holidays are not worth knowing about, and I'm not sure where you gathered that; I just don't think it's fair to expect people to know about them, and to therefore read potential malice into any scheduling conflicts. I lived with a fairly (though not strictly) observant Jewish woman for three and a half years, and as I said, I'd never heard of Sukkot before yesterday. And I wouldn't expect any random person to know the date of Eid al-Fitr either.

First, thank you for your calm response to this. I spent most of the post trying to explain what I found upsetting about responses, because I know people don't usually get it, but by the time I reached the end, I was too upset to do that. I know it's easy to respond to escalated emotion with higher escalation, and I appreciate that you're de-escalating instead of counter-attacking.

Re-reading, I can imagine the tone of your exchange with mindset as a friendly shared joke. That's not how it sounded to me when I first read it, especially since I read far enough to establish that you weren't Jewish but not that mindset was. When you said, "some other Jewish holiday. I wanna say Rosh Hashanah, but that's just because it's fun to say," especially after expressing skepticism about a fannish conflict with a Jewish holiday being a reason for complaint, it sounded like you were making fun of the sound of "Rosh Hashashah," which mindset seemed to confirm. And making fun of the sound of holidays--first, it's kind of like a kid's name, you know? You're allowed to make fun of your own kid brother's name, but other people aren't. He's not *their* kid brother. Second, it sets up the unfamiliar or unknown as mockable, innately less serious and dignified than the familiar and known. In a conversation where people already seemed to be dismissive of Judaism or the constraints of certain Jewish sects, I didn't hear, "It's fun to say--I like the way 'Rosh Hashanah' sounds", I heard "It's fun to say--because it's silly, ha." I'm sorry that I misread you, but I don't think it's an unreasonable misreading.

For mindset, well. If I were walking past two people in conversation and one of them was making up funny ways to say "Sukkot," I might not stiffen, because there might be enough clues in voice and tone for me to know at least one of them was Jewish and it was all meant affectionately. But I might not get it then, and then I would probably turn around and glare, because it does sound like a derogatory term. (And a stretch. I pronounce it roughly "Soo-kote", with a long O, so you really have to twist it around to get the vowels in "suck" and "it".)

I am willing to believe it's a misunderstanding and no offense was intended, and will correct the post to point to this discussion, but I think it is a bad idea to make fun of other people's holidays in a public place where strangers can overhear you, whether that's on a college campus or on the Internet. Does that explanation make sense?

[tenar.livejournal.com]

oh, well said. i read the f_w threads with my jaw dropped last night. particularly at the comments non-observent/cultural jews made regarding the orthodox. which isn't to say there's no reason to be critical of the xenophobic race and gender attitudes i've encountered within the community, but discrediting them as lunatics isn't the way to go about it. and the constant reference to race issues as wank, which drives me mad. given that, there were some interesting threads, as other comments have mentioned. BUT STILL. thanks for putting this out there.

[thuviaptarth.livejournal.com]

I know! It's not like I don't have my own issues with Orthodox Judaism, but dudes! if you still consider yourself a Jew, then have *some* sense of community. And if you don't consider yourself a Jew, do not be dismissive of other people's religions/ethnicities!

[nojojojo.livejournal.com]

OK, I finally have to ask: what the heck is Yuletide, and what does it have to do with yaoi? (And why is it spelled y/a/o/i here?)

That said -- the stupid, it doth overfloweth. O.o And no, you don't have to explain, except to idiots who wouldn't get the explanation even if you did. one must want to listen to some things.

[thuviaptarth.livejournal.com]

Hee. yuletide is an annual holiday challenge for obscure fandoms. You can request stories in three or four rare fandoms, and you must offer to write in at least four fandoms. (I think. Maybe it's more than four.) You write one story and you get one story--the three or four requests is to give the moderators (or their automation) multiple opportunities to match you up with someone. You can pinch hit and write extra stories, but that's the basic idea.

It is awesome, and signups are open till October 18, and if you still write fic at all, I highly recommend participating. It is one of my favorite fannish events ever.

It doesn't have anything to do with "yaoi" except that I was taking off a fannish in-joke where people will say, "Here are my thoughts on yaoi!" where they often don't know anything about yaoi and even if they do, no one wants to hear them. It's spelled with slashes because you can't put strikethroughs in a Subject box.

[chomiji]

I ended up here from a link on oyceter's LJ, but actually the issue itself had already taken a little visit to my own LJ, hours before I saw her link ... .

I'm Jewish, and I'm participating in Yuletide for the first time.

As far as the name of the event goes, I'm not that excited: no, it's not my holiday, but when friends invite me over to decorate their Christmas tree, I don't say, "No, I can't do that, it's not my holiday." I go help them make their tree pretty, and maybe next year I invite them to a Passover seder, and they can help us celebrate the Festival of Freedom. It's good for everyone that way, yes? We all have a good time, and we all learn. So I don't see anything troublesome with writing fic to give to people at this time of year as a gift.

What happened today was this: I like to make icons. I noticed that some people were posting on the LJ Yuletide community with special Yuletide icons. So I made some for people to take and use, and one of them has a hanukiyyah - a Hanukah menorah. Because I know that I can't be the only Jewish person participating, and I thought it might be nice for some of them to be able to present that face, if they wanted. All the icons say Yuletide 2007 on them (they're here, if you want to see what they look like).

So via e-mail, I got a very polite note from someone who was worried that some people might be very offended by the hanukiyya with the words Yuletide 2007 on it.

And you know, she's right, I guess someone could be offended.

My correspondent suggested I get rid of the icon. I don't particularly want to - I like it, and I stand by my intent in creating it.

But I'm interested in hearing what others think - although I'm worried about it as well.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

I feel the same way you do about Yuletide and its Christmassy connotations. It's not my holiday, but I don't feel excluded on that basis. But I'm happy to celebrate anything that doesn't require me to overtly worship a God I don't believe in, and which is open to participation by non-believers in the general spirit of celebration (and my favorite holiday is Holi, to which I have no connection whatsoever other than fond memories).

I like your menorah icon and I hate the thought of pre-emptively withdrawing it for someone's hypothetical offense.

And yes, Jews other than you do Yuletide! In fact I am pretty sure it was created by Jews.

[cidercupcakes.livejournal.com]

Hi! We don't know each other, and I'm only on the outskirts of this whole thing, and am so isolated in fandom that if fox1013 hadn't said something, I probably wouldn't have known anything about it, but when you mess with Amy, I throw the hell down, so that's how I got involved.

I was linked to this post by vaznetti, and I'd just like to say that this is one of the best, most eloquent and level-headed things I've seen anyone say on the subject. Thanks so much for it.

[medie]

This post was wonderful. Seriously. It said everything that needed to be said and said it in a way that, well, didn't poke people in the eye first. I disagreed with her in a very general sense (though yes, offended by the dismissiveness of something I hold quite sacred.) that invoked a little eyerolling. But what exploded out of it?

*SERIOUSLY* no. Just. *NO*. So, um, thank you from a random little nobody who thought this post was amazingly well done? Because yes, thank you.



btw, I had a conversation with someone in fandom once to whom I tried to make the explanation that one can be Christian without being A Christian and, um, yeah it was like beating my head off a wall trying to explain it. So I'm right there with you on the confusion between cultural Christianity and actual Christianity.

[luzdeestrellas.livejournal.com]

This was an awesome post. Thank you so much for making it.

Can I ask--and I've been wondering about this a lot this week--if it's acknowledged (and I think it's crazy that it's not), that Yuletide revolves around Christmas, is that okay? I mean, is the problem that people deny it, and are dismissive of the complaint? Because honestly, I'm not sure what way around it there is. A couple of people started this challenge, as something fun, and it grew, in ways I doubt they could have foreseen, so I guess I'm kind of--I don't think it's necessarily wrong that it revolves around Christmas, (which is easy for me to say, I know, because while I'm not religious, I was also raised Catholic, so it's part of my culture) as long as it doesn't seek to exclude anyone intentionally, and so far as possible with a Christmas theme, does as much as possible to include everyone. Having two weeks for sign ups, and doing as much as can be done to stay away from the religious aspects, and of course, listening if suggestions are made for other ways to make it more inclusive, seems mostly reasonable, to me. But I don't know whether that's because I'm speaking from a position of privilege, I guess.

Is the answer to have more cultural exchanges? Like the characters of colour ficathon not that long ago, or maybe challenges that revolved around non-Christian holidays? I'm not sure how practical that is, or whether it would end up creating more offence, but for me, that's what I'd love, and what seems like some kind of answer. That we'd learn to welcome each other's traditions rather than trying to deny that we have different ones, or meld them into one package that doesn't celebrate what's personal to anyone.

[giandujakiss.livejournal.com]

Hi - hope you don't mind me answering, it's just that your question captures something that I think has really been distorted or misunderstood in the discussions. As far as I know, no one - certainly not untrue_accounts or her commenters, including myself - objects to the fact that Yuletide is Christmas-themed. We're not Christian, but we understand that we live in a society where Christianity is the dominant religion, and Yuletide is a fun fannish activity, and that's fine. But Christmas isn't our tradition, and we are stepping outside of our own traditions when we participate in Christmas-themed activities.

The problem occurs when people start assuming and behaving as though it is a holiday that includes everyone, and argue that we are "wrong" for thinking it doesn't include us all. These arguments - and I've had them in real life, non fannish contexts - generally either say something like "Christmas has become so commercialized and about gifts and Santa that it's really not religious anymore" or "Yuletide is a term with Pagan origins so therefore it's not Christian." And from the perspective of someone who isn't Christian, these arguments can be offensive - they completely deny the existence of any experience other than default Christianity.

In this particular dispute, it looks as though some people took an objection to the timing of Yuletide signups as an objection to the use of Yuletide and Christmas as a theme for the challenge - which (I think??) was not what the poster intended. And that argument (why do you object to Christmas?) is a straw man that diverts attention from whatever other issues were raised.