I followed the link here from chopchica (just so, y'know, you don't think I'm coming after you in search of an argument).
I also got to your post via chopchica, so I understand completely. ;) I also didn't know you were panthea--thank you for telling me--and didn't intend to stalk you, or passive-aggressively attract you to this post and blindside you with an attack, or anything. I'm not sure what I would have done differently if I'd known--probably not commented in your LJ at all--but I wasn't trying to harass you or pick a fight.
I'm not saying Yuletide doesn't mean Christmas to most people; the original definition thing was more of a side note, and again, that's not a battle I'm willing to fight to the end in order to defend. I just like learning about words' original meanings.
Then we're in agreement. I'd misunderstood you to mean that the original meaning outweighed, or erased, the later meaning.
And in all honesty, I'm not seeing what's anti-Semitic about that particular comment of mine. Perhaps it was worded badly, but I was in no way implying that Jewish holidays are not worth knowing about, and I'm not sure where you gathered that; I just don't think it's fair to expect people to know about them, and to therefore read potential malice into any scheduling conflicts. I lived with a fairly (though not strictly) observant Jewish woman for three and a half years, and as I said, I'd never heard of Sukkot before yesterday. And I wouldn't expect any random person to know the date of Eid al-Fitr either.
First, thank you for your calm response to this. I spent most of the post trying to explain what I found upsetting about responses, because I know people don't usually get it, but by the time I reached the end, I was too upset to do that. I know it's easy to respond to escalated emotion with higher escalation, and I appreciate that you're de-escalating instead of counter-attacking.
Re-reading, I can imagine the tone of your exchange with mindset as a friendly shared joke. That's not how it sounded to me when I first read it, especially since I read far enough to establish that you weren't Jewish but not that mindset was. When you said, "some other Jewish holiday. I wanna say Rosh Hashanah, but that's just because it's fun to say," especially after expressing skepticism about a fannish conflict with a Jewish holiday being a reason for complaint, it sounded like you were making fun of the sound of "Rosh Hashashah," which mindset seemed to confirm. And making fun of the sound of holidays--first, it's kind of like a kid's name, you know? You're allowed to make fun of your own kid brother's name, but other people aren't. He's not *their* kid brother. Second, it sets up the unfamiliar or unknown as mockable, innately less serious and dignified than the familiar and known. In a conversation where people already seemed to be dismissive of Judaism or the constraints of certain Jewish sects, I didn't hear, "It's fun to say--I like the way 'Rosh Hashanah' sounds", I heard "It's fun to say--because it's silly, ha." I'm sorry that I misread you, but I don't think it's an unreasonable misreading.
For mindset, well. If I were walking past two people in conversation and one of them was making up funny ways to say "Sukkot," I might not stiffen, because there might be enough clues in voice and tone for me to know at least one of them was Jewish and it was all meant affectionately. But I might not get it then, and then I would probably turn around and glare, because it does sound like a derogatory term. (And a stretch. I pronounce it roughly "Soo-kote", with a long O, so you really have to twist it around to get the vowels in "suck" and "it".)
I am willing to believe it's a misunderstanding and no offense was intended, and will correct the post to point to this discussion, but I think it is a bad idea to make fun of other people's holidays in a public place where strangers can overhear you, whether that's on a college campus or on the Internet. Does that explanation make sense?
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I also got to your post via
I'm not saying Yuletide doesn't mean Christmas to most people; the original definition thing was more of a side note, and again, that's not a battle I'm willing to fight to the end in order to defend. I just like learning about words' original meanings.
Then we're in agreement. I'd misunderstood you to mean that the original meaning outweighed, or erased, the later meaning.
And in all honesty, I'm not seeing what's anti-Semitic about that particular comment of mine. Perhaps it was worded badly, but I was in no way implying that Jewish holidays are not worth knowing about, and I'm not sure where you gathered that; I just don't think it's fair to expect people to know about them, and to therefore read potential malice into any scheduling conflicts. I lived with a fairly (though not strictly) observant Jewish woman for three and a half years, and as I said, I'd never heard of Sukkot before yesterday. And I wouldn't expect any random person to know the date of Eid al-Fitr either.
First, thank you for your calm response to this. I spent most of the post trying to explain what I found upsetting about responses, because I know people don't usually get it, but by the time I reached the end, I was too upset to do that. I know it's easy to respond to escalated emotion with higher escalation, and I appreciate that you're de-escalating instead of counter-attacking.
Re-reading, I can imagine the tone of your exchange with mindset as a friendly shared joke. That's not how it sounded to me when I first read it, especially since I read far enough to establish that you weren't Jewish but not that mindset was. When you said, "some other Jewish holiday. I wanna say Rosh Hashanah, but that's just because it's fun to say," especially after expressing skepticism about a fannish conflict with a Jewish holiday being a reason for complaint, it sounded like you were making fun of the sound of "Rosh Hashashah," which mindset seemed to confirm. And making fun of the sound of holidays--first, it's kind of like a kid's name, you know? You're allowed to make fun of your own kid brother's name, but other people aren't. He's not *their* kid brother. Second, it sets up the unfamiliar or unknown as mockable, innately less serious and dignified than the familiar and known. In a conversation where people already seemed to be dismissive of Judaism or the constraints of certain Jewish sects, I didn't hear, "It's fun to say--I like the way 'Rosh Hashanah' sounds", I heard "It's fun to say--because it's silly, ha." I'm sorry that I misread you, but I don't think it's an unreasonable misreading.
For mindset, well. If I were walking past two people in conversation and one of them was making up funny ways to say "Sukkot," I might not stiffen, because there might be enough clues in voice and tone for me to know at least one of them was Jewish and it was all meant affectionately. But I might not get it then, and then I would probably turn around and glare, because it does sound like a derogatory term. (And a stretch. I pronounce it roughly "Soo-kote", with a long O, so you really have to twist it around to get the vowels in "suck" and "it".)
I am willing to believe it's a misunderstanding and no offense was intended, and will correct the post to point to this discussion, but I think it is a bad idea to make fun of other people's holidays in a public place where strangers can overhear you, whether that's on a college campus or on the Internet. Does that explanation make sense?