thuviaptarth | Here are my thoughts on /y/a/o/i/ "yuletide," fandom, and anti-Semitism

Entry tags:

fandom,
judaism

Here are my thoughts on /y/a/o/i/ "yuletide," fandom, and anti-Semitism

Some of you have seen some of this argument already, and some of you haven't, and my feelings about arguments made on both sides are mixed, so I'm going to start with a recap and continue with tons of exposition. Those of you who haven't skipped out already, please bear with me.

mamadeb posted a complaint about Yuletide signups going live on Sukkot, a Jewish holiday. I read her tone as intended to be humorous, in a passive-aggressive way, but other people--including several on her friends list--read it as accusatory. She's said in comments that she didn't intend to accuse the Yuletide mods of deliberate malice, just carelessness. In the comments, but not in the original post, she also expresses a wish that the ficathon had a "more neutral name." In addition to the arguments in her comments, her post got picked up by Fandom Wank.

I am disturbed by some of the objections to

mamadeb, and particularly by the nature of some of the responses on Fandom Wank. I'd like to make it clear that I'm not bothered by people who disagree with

mamadeb's initial complaint. I do not, in fact, agree with her complaint about the timing of the signups. The signups were pre-announced and there's a two-week signup period with no penalty for signing up late in the period or reward for signing up early. The signup period is two weeks long precisely to allow people who have conflicts during that a period a long enough opening that they can find time to sign up.

I also do not criticize people who read Mama Deb's tone as accusatory; as I said, I read it as intended to be humorous, but also, as I implied by "passive-aggressive," as not quite coming off that way. Several of her initial commenters suggested steps she could take to make sure Yuletide nominations didn't conflict with Jewish holidays in the future, and her dismissal of all of these did indeed rub me wrong.

Finally, I do not agree with her dismissive attitude towards paganism and Christian holidays in the comments. She's not the spokesperson I'd have picked, and I am probably not the one she would have picked, but nevertheless I am speaking out about the few items on which I do agree with her.

I am disturbed by the number of people who disclaim a connection between the term "Yuletide" and Christianity, or for that matter between "Christmas" and Christianity; by the initial Fandom Wank post's cavalier attitude towards the possibility of a Jewish complaint; and by the outright anti-Semitism from some of the Fandom Wank commenters. (Yes, I know, they're Fandom Wank. They're still part of fandom.)

To elaborate:

Yuletide and Christianity
I am aware that "Yule" was originally a pagan term and it has been reclaimed by many neo-pagans for the winter solstice holiday. However, for several centuries now, it has been associated with the Christmas holiday, and the name of the Yuletide challenge is taken from a Christmas carol. I realize that for many people in the West, especially but not exclusively Christians, Christmas has become a secular holiday because it is associated with their national culture (hi, guys, I've been in the UK in December, you cannot convince me I am being American-centric here) and because it is recognized as a holiday by their secular governments. I know Jews and members of other religious minorities in the West who are not bothered by the terms "Yuletide" or "Secret Santa" and who have Christmas trees (and who set up huge fandom-crossing obscure fandom ficathons!) and who distinguish the cultural practice of Christianity from the religious practice of Christianity. I am not one of them, partly because so few Christians seem to have an understanding of Christianity as a cultural practice, or the ways in which they receive the privilege of a cultural default, even when they themselves are not religious or choose atheism or a different religion. Why should they have this understanding? Privilege is the headache they don't know they don't have.

I am going to be very explicit about this: I'm not just talking about this ficathon. I'm not asking for the name "Yuletide" to be changed. I think that would be a huge headache, to begin with, and at this point I even have positive associations with the name, because of my happy involvement with the challenge. But I am saying that "Yuletide"--whether in reference to this challenge or in general--is not nondenominational. It is not religiously neutral. It is not broadly inclusive.

And really, the important part of that last paragraph for me is the "in general." This is not about an attitude specific to fandom. This is about an attitude in the cultures from which Western media fans come.

And the amount of resistance to this concept--that Christianity is not everyone's default and it is not a neutral position--is what disturbs me in many responses.
I get the sense in this thread that some people think it's not really anti-Semitism if it just affects some Jews, not all of them. To be quite honest, this seems to me about the same reasoning as saying that forbidding French schoolgirls to wear veils isn't anti-Muslim because it only affects the really devout ones, or that forbidding black women in public offices in Florida to wear braids or dreads isn't racist because some black women like straightening their hair.

No, not all Jews turn off their computers on the Sabbath or on Sukkot. I don't. But that doesn't mean I am unaffected by the mockery of traditional Jewish customs.
Several of the comments on Fandom Wank, including the original post, were not so much anti-Semitic as Christian-centric. This is still, frankly, a problem. An inclusive society depends on recognizing that others are not like us and that their communities, folkways, traditions, and identities are valuable to them and innately worth preserving. The failure to realize this, or to recognize specific instances of exclusion, is privilege in action; it is generally motivated by ignorance rather than malice, but the ignorance is still hurting other people.

Comments I would place in this category include:
- If mamadeb is so upset and bothered by Yuletide signups beginning on Sukkot (and Yuletide's name), why is she even bothering with Yuletide?
  
  If it bothers her that much, then why be a part of it?
  
  As at least two subsequent commenters did point out, it's not unreasonable to criticize an institution which excludes you.
- Uhm, just curious, does anyone know why mamadeb has an issue with the term "Yuletide"? (No sarcasm, I really do want to know.) and several of the responses, expressing disbelief, contempt, indifference to the exclusion of Judaism and other religions, and--this may be my favorite--the idea that since the Christmas carol the challenge name came from was originally a pagan Welsh hymn, it's not really Christian, even though Wales was converted to Christianity in about the fifth century of the Common Era (a fact I found by about five minutes' Googling, and if you don't know what the Common Era is, you too can Google to find out) and the hymn has been used as a Christmas carol throughout the English-speaking world for at least two hundred years now.
ETA 9:17pm: I'm leaving this up because people responded to it, and it affected my mood, but mayatawi offered an explanation for the exchange here, so I retract the accusation of anti-Semitism. I still think the conversation was ill-advised, but I don't think there was any malice involved.END ETA

Comments which passed right over Christian-centric to anti-Semitic came up in this thread:

panthea: Uh, at a guess... because most non-Jews have never even heard of Sukkot, let alone know when it is?

Mamadeb waved the same persecution flag when sign-ups for the Muskrat Jamboree (tiny tiny slash con in Boston this year) opened on... some other Jewish holiday. I wanna say Rosh Hashanah, but that's just because it's fun to say.

mindset: My non-Jewish boyfriend's favorite Jewish holiday is Sukkot, just because he enjoys pronouncing it "suck it". He is a great big silly. :)

Do I have to explain what's wrong with this? Do I really have to explain what's so insulting about someone not just saying that Jewish holidays aren't well-known in the West, but implying that they're not worth knowing? Do I have to explain why it's exoticizing and insulting and just generally not okay to make fun of the name of Jewish holidays, or to take a holiday name and turn it into a sexual slur/insult? Do I really, really, really have to explain why someone saying "Suck it" instead of "Sukkot" isn't being a great big silly, he's being an asshole, and so is the person quoting this with approval?

Do I really?

ETA 9:17pm: mayatawi offers an explanation for the exchange here, so I retract the accusation of anti-Semitism. I still think the conversation was ill-advised, but I don't think there was any malice involved.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I followed the link here from

chopchica (just so, y'know, you don't think I'm coming after you in search of an argument).

First of all, as I said in my response to your comment in my post (which, wow, that's a tennis game of a clause right there), I don't know that I actually disagree with anything you said. I'm not saying Yuletide doesn't mean Christmas to most people; the original definition thing was more of a side note, and again, that's not a battle I'm willing to fight to the end in order to defend. I just like learning about words' original meanings.

I am going to be very explicit about this: I'm not just talking about this ficathon. I'm not asking for the name "Yuletide" to be changed. I think that would be a huge headache, to begin with, and at this point I even have positive associations with the name, because of my happy involvement with the challenge. But I am saying that "Yuletide"--whether in reference to this challenge or in general--is not nondenominational. It is not religiously neutral. It is not broadly inclusive.

I agree with this entirely, and I didn't intend to write anything in my post to imply otherwise. (Or, well, on re-reading, I kind of did. Again, though, not going to argue the etymology.)

Having said that, full disclosure time: I'm panthea on JF. And in all honesty, I'm not seeing what's anti-Semitic about that particular comment of mine. Perhaps it was worded badly, but I was in no way implying that Jewish holidays are not worth knowing about, and I'm not sure where you gathered that; I just don't think it's fair to expect people to know about them, and to therefore read potential malice into any scheduling conflicts. I lived with a fairly (though not strictly) observant Jewish woman for three and a half years, and as I said, I'd never heard of Sukkot before yesterday. And I wouldn't expect any random person to know the date of Eid al-Fitr either.

And I'm not sure if the "making fun" part was referring to me as well, but I wasn't making fun of Rosh Hashanah either. I just like the way it sounds.

(Incidentally, I don't know if this matters at all-- and it probably doesn't-- but it's worth mentioning that mindset is herself Jewish.)

I followed the link here from chopchica (just so, y'know, you don't think I'm coming after you in search of an argument).

I also got to your post via

chopchica, so I understand completely. ;) I also didn't know you were panthea--thank you for telling me--and didn't intend to stalk you, or passive-aggressively attract you to this post and blindside you with an attack, or anything. I'm not sure what I would have done differently if I'd known--probably not commented in your LJ at all--but I wasn't trying to harass you or pick a fight.

I'm not saying Yuletide doesn't mean Christmas to most people; the original definition thing was more of a side note, and again, that's not a battle I'm willing to fight to the end in order to defend. I just like learning about words' original meanings.

Then we're in agreement. I'd misunderstood you to mean that the original meaning outweighed, or erased, the later meaning.

And in all honesty, I'm not seeing what's anti-Semitic about that particular comment of mine. Perhaps it was worded badly, but I was in no way implying that Jewish holidays are not worth knowing about, and I'm not sure where you gathered that; I just don't think it's fair to expect people to know about them, and to therefore read potential malice into any scheduling conflicts. I lived with a fairly (though not strictly) observant Jewish woman for three and a half years, and as I said, I'd never heard of Sukkot before yesterday. And I wouldn't expect any random person to know the date of Eid al-Fitr either.

First, thank you for your calm response to this. I spent most of the post trying to explain what I found upsetting about responses, because I know people don't usually get it, but by the time I reached the end, I was too upset to do that. I know it's easy to respond to escalated emotion with higher escalation, and I appreciate that you're de-escalating instead of counter-attacking.

Re-reading, I can imagine the tone of your exchange with mindset as a friendly shared joke. That's not how it sounded to me when I first read it, especially since I read far enough to establish that you weren't Jewish but not that mindset was. When you said, "some other Jewish holiday. I wanna say Rosh Hashanah, but that's just because it's fun to say," especially after expressing skepticism about a fannish conflict with a Jewish holiday being a reason for complaint, it sounded like you were making fun of the sound of "Rosh Hashashah," which mindset seemed to confirm. And making fun of the sound of holidays--first, it's kind of like a kid's name, you know? You're allowed to make fun of your own kid brother's name, but other people aren't. He's not *their* kid brother. Second, it sets up the unfamiliar or unknown as mockable, innately less serious and dignified than the familiar and known. In a conversation where people already seemed to be dismissive of Judaism or the constraints of certain Jewish sects, I didn't hear, "It's fun to say--I like the way 'Rosh Hashanah' sounds", I heard "It's fun to say--because it's silly, ha." I'm sorry that I misread you, but I don't think it's an unreasonable misreading.

For mindset, well. If I were walking past two people in conversation and one of them was making up funny ways to say "Sukkot," I might not stiffen, because there might be enough clues in voice and tone for me to know at least one of them was Jewish and it was all meant affectionately. But I might not get it then, and then I would probably turn around and glare, because it does sound like a derogatory term. (And a stretch. I pronounce it roughly "Soo-kote", with a long O, so you really have to twist it around to get the vowels in "suck" and "it".)

I am willing to believe it's a misunderstanding and no offense was intended, and will correct the post to point to this discussion, but I think it is a bad idea to make fun of other people's holidays in a public place where strangers can overhear you, whether that's on a college campus or on the Internet. Does that explanation make sense?

Thank you for being awesome about this. I was kind of nervous about speaking up, but I felt I had to.

Then we're in agreement. I'd misunderstood you to mean that the original meaning outweighed, or erased, the later meaning.

Not erased, but mitigated. Or maybe erased; I don't even know anymore. But, you know, I'll gladly concede that point. I'd never known about the original meaning before, so I was pretty much like a kid with a shiny new fact to show off. :)

Re-reading, I can imagine the tone of your exchange with mindset as a friendly shared joke. That's not how it sounded to me when I first read it....

Yeah, the whole can't-hear-tone-of-voice-on-the-internet thing. I'm just so used to having irreverent discussions about religion in real life, it doesn't usually occur to me that not everybody's okay with that.

...especially after expressing skepticism about a fannish conflict with a Jewish holiday being a reason for complaint...

That, I totally see how that treaded the line of acceptability. (And I did touch on that in my LJ post, but to clarify-- I don't think it's not a reason for complaint; I do think it's unreasonable to expect fandom events not to conflict with religion. But, you know, I get into that in my post, so I'm not going to reiterate here.) In this particular case, it was a comment on

mamadeb's attitude in particular, and how it's not an isolated incident: not saying "That sucks that there's a conflict," but saying (as she did with MJ) "There's a conflict, I guess they don't want me there." You know, attributing malicious motives to unintentional oversights.

In a conversation where people already seemed to be dismissive of Judaism or the constraints of certain Jewish sects, I didn't hear, "It's fun to say--I like the way 'Rosh Hashanah' sounds", I heard "It's fun to say--because it's silly, ha." I'm sorry that I misread you, but I don't think it's an unreasonable misreading.

Understood, and I won't argue over it being reasonable or not, because I don't have the context to judge that. It wouldn't even occur to me to mock Jewish holidays-- I have no reason to-- but I can't pretend to know what others would consider to be mocking.

Peace?

Peace, and thank you for speaking up! It was really helpful.

(Sorry, this got long.)

Re: the obscurity of Sukkot: I'm not surprised non-Jews haven't heard of it, but I am surprised that so many Jews haven't. I haven't observed it since college, but it is actually one of the major holidays, at least for Ashkenazi (Eastern European) Jews--it's the harvest festival, and the time of celebration, that comes at the end of the rather more painful High Holy Days. In Hebrew school, I was taught that the Jewish holidays go like this in order of importance:

Yom Kippur
Pesach
Rosh Hashanah
Sukkot

Sometimes you'd put Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur and the week between together as the High Holy Days, which would put Sukkot in third place rather than fourth. It is way more important than, say, Hannukah, which is a minor holiday in a lot of countries besides the US, and a minor holiday for extremely observant Jews.

can i tell you how many times i've eaten in a sukkah since i moved to new york? let's just say, A LOT.

(also, i made the mistake on my first day of college, upon looking at the school calendar for the year with my two new roommates, to say, "wait, we don't get easter off??" to which they both just stared at me. and then lena realized she didn't get sukkot off, and we felt somewhat mollified.)

but i've had a weird religious education - catholic school until college, but high school didn't have one ounce of catechism. i can recite more torah portions than i can pieces of the new testament. i own two different haggadahs of my own, i LOVE pesach, and i think yom kippur is a totally awesome idea for a holiday, and just think that we catholics kind of cannibalized it for every saturday because it was so cool. (i'm a bit of a liberal catholic.)

but i mean, my roommates that first year were both jewish, and renee honestly had no idea what the trinity was/meant, and lena had no clue what the holy spirit was/is, so you know. i think if you go to hebrew school your whole life, you get a certain view, if you go to a truly christian-we-teach-the-principles school, you get a view, if you go to a liberal catholic "you graduated! let's go to tibet and study buddhism for three and a half weeks!" you get a certain view. i don't think either is really bad, or wrong, until you say, "i don't care about yours - i'm not going to do anything different." because then it's just offensive all over.

(then again, i am in total teacher-mentality, and am trying to think about how i can teach world religions from a secular not-pissing-the-parents-and-administration-off way. because honestly? i think one of the best things i ever did was write a paper my freshmen year of high school about the similarities between christianity, judaism, and islam. because so much of politics today is couched in religious terms, and often we don't even know what we are saying, or the spirit it which it was sent, and extremism and yadda yadda. education is the cure to intolerance! (most of the time.))

sorry to ramble. i just find this really, really interesting - especially for me, because i mean, i was a minority religion at my catholic school (the protestants totally had us beat), and i was a total minority at barnard, and then i lived on the UWS. my roommate, who is israeli (and jewish), says all the time i know more about judaism than she does, that i'd be able to "pass" in israel just as easily as she would. and we joke about it, but really? i just like knowing things and being able to talk about things, and how things are different and similar and why. besides, i really do sincerely believe we all started in the same place, and i think that gives us more than enough cause to try and understand why we are different now.

(also i have a big nose. thanks, dad! ;) )

(oh, for the record? the argument that christmas is so commercialized "it doesn't really count" actually pisses me off as a catholic. because regardless, i know it's MY holiday and not a jewish holiday, that this holiday is kind of what makes my religion different from your religion, and i think that if christians downplay the importance of it, it's like . . . downplaying the importance of pesach just because it's near easter. BE PROUD OF YOUR RELIGION, PEOPLE. or your belief-system, or whatever. but own up to it, because dude, christmas is so in your face and there, and santa claus came from the idea of a saint, so you know, protestants can protest too, but it's still about THE BIRTH OF JESUS. ::breathes::)

The commentary on views? Best description of the problem I've seen. Seriously. It's *PERFECT*. I've noticed the same problem within denominations of Christianity, so it's no shock that you'd have MASSIVE misunderstandings between people of completely different faiths and, since people tend toward the "me, huh there's other people in the world?" mentality.

And yeah, I kind of saw red on the "Christmas is just..." mentality. For some of us, no, it really isn't "just" and to complain about disrepect of a faith while doling out the same thing in the same breath? *seethe*

When you say you're a minority religion, I think you're downplaying the role played by the greater social context. It's possible for a white kid to be in the minority by going to a predominantly black school in Bed-Stuy, but that doesn't eliminate the advantages he gets from being white in the greater culture. Different Christian branches may still get different amounts of cultural privilege (and that's impacted by lots of things, particularly race and class -- I've noticed way more religious xenophobia towards Chicano Catholics than Italian- or Irish-American Catholics -- but they do still get an advantage. You may not have gotten Easter off at Barnard, but we got it off at Yale--whereas the first week of classes *invariably* conflicted with the High Holy Days, even though 25% of the undergraduate population and a significant percentage of the teaching staff and administration were Jewish.

Lena may not have known the details of the Trinity, but I bet she knew something about the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism because European religious wars are part of secular secondary education in the US. And I don't have a problem with that; I just have a problem with how it's taught, and what else *isn't* taught.

panthea: Uh, at a guess... because most non-Jews have never even heard of Sukkot, let alone know when it is?

Mamadeb waved the same persecution flag when sign-ups for the Muskrat Jamboree (tiny tiny slash con in Boston this year) opened on... some other Jewish holiday. I wanna say Rosh Hashanah, but that's just because it's fun to say.

Hi. I'm not here to pick a fight with you. I'm here to address you directly, since I read your comments on fandom_wank. I'm Jewish, but that really shouldn't matter. I don't really agree with the phrasing in mamadeb's original post, but that also doesn't matter. I'm also someone that normally doesn't tend to get upset about Yuletide fic exchanges, but the comments I saw from you on fandom_wank were easily some of the most insensitive and derogatory in all of the threads on the fandom_wank post regarding mamadeb. Your comment above, the one that was quoted by the OP, could be easily construed as culturally insensitive, culturally ignorant, and frankly, blinded by privilege. I've read your entry on your own journal, since I'm following numerous posts due to links on metafandom, and what I see you typing here is the old "but if I don't mean to be anti-Semitic, it can't possibly be anti-Semitic or insensitive!" argument.

The fact that you don't perceive the possibility that your comments could be perceived as anti-Semitic is one part of the problem. The fact that you assume - or "guess," as you put it - that "most non-Jews" don't know about Jewish holidays that you consider obscure, seeming to imply that you template your own limited personal experience onto the larger world and draw inferences therein, is another problem. (I reference here your roommate anecdote, which is just another variant of "but I have Jewish friends!") That fact that your above comment quoted by the OP here can easily be read as marginalizing, condescending, and a host of other things, and that you presume to tell other people what level of offense that they should or should not take when people react to your words is yet another problem.

That being said, the fact that you've bothered to try to clarify (or backpedal, I'm not sure which; my cynical tendencies frankly make me assume the latter, but perhaps I'm mistaken) is admirable, and you seem to be trying to clarify what you mean. I appreciate that, I really do. Honestly. You seem to be listening to what people are saying here, thinking about it, and responding thoughtfully, and I also appreciate that.

But when people react to your words differently than you anticipated - a whole LOT of people reacting differently, and by this I mean negatively - you dismissing their reactions automatically or not understanding that there's a possibility that what you say on a wank community, where you're busy saying negative things about people being wanked, comes across as, well, dismissive, culturally insensitive, ignorant, highly judgemental, and as just. Not. Getting. It.

You don't get to dictate how other people react to your words, as should be obvious by now. You don't get to judge whether or not someone's emotional reaction during this entire clusterfuck is appropriate or not, because you're not walking in their shoes. You really don't have a credible moral or intellectual position at all in trying to tell someone else how to feel about anything.

If people have made abundantly clear, as they have, that your words, along with the words of others in this highly charged environment smacked of insensitivity? The logical response is not to outright deny. I don't think you're intentionally insensitive, but I do have issue with you when you're dismissive of other people who point out "hey, um, your comments left me feeling uncomfortable, they can read as insensitive" and you respond with outright denial.

Again, though, thank you for your honesty, and your seeming williingness to listen. I mean that, sincerely. That rocks.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Here are my thoughts on /y/a/o/i/ "yuletide," fandom, and anti-Semitism

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

Part II

Re: Part II

Re: Part II

Re: Part II

Here via metafandom.