thuvia ptarth (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
thuviaptarth) wrote2007-10-11 08:18 am
thuviaptarth) wrote2007-10-11 08:18 am
Here are my thoughts on /y/a/o/i/ "yuletide," fandom, and anti-Semitism
Some of you have seen some of this argument already, and some of you haven't, and my feelings about arguments made on both sides are mixed, so I'm going to start with a recap and continue with tons of exposition. Those of you who haven't skipped out already, please bear with me.
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mamadeb posted a complaint about Yuletide signups going live on Sukkot, a Jewish holiday. I read her tone as intended to be humorous, in a passive-aggressive way, but other people--including several on her friends list--read it as accusatory. She's said in comments that she didn't intend to accuse the Yuletide mods of deliberate malice, just carelessness. In the comments, but not in the original post, she also expresses a wish that the ficathon had a "more neutral name." In addition to the arguments in her comments, her post got picked up by Fandom Wank.
I am disturbed by some of the objections tomamadeb, and particularly by the nature of some of the responses on Fandom Wank. I'd like to make it clear that I'm not bothered by people who disagree with mamadeb's initial complaint. I do not, in fact, agree with her complaint about the timing of the signups. The signups were pre-announced and there's a two-week signup period with no penalty for signing up late in the period or reward for signing up early. The signup period is two weeks long precisely to allow people who have conflicts during that a period a long enough opening that they can find time to sign up.
I also do not criticize people who read Mama Deb's tone as accusatory; as I said, I read it as intended to be humorous, but also, as I implied by "passive-aggressive," as not quite coming off that way. Several of her initial commenters suggested steps she could take to make sure Yuletide nominations didn't conflict with Jewish holidays in the future, and her dismissal of all of these did indeed rub me wrong.
Finally, I do not agree with her dismissive attitude towards paganism and Christian holidays in the comments. She's not the spokesperson I'd have picked, and I am probably not the one she would have picked, but nevertheless I am speaking out about the few items on which I do agree with her.
I am disturbed by the number of people who disclaim a connection between the term "Yuletide" and Christianity, or for that matter between "Christmas" and Christianity; by the initial Fandom Wank post's cavalier attitude towards the possibility of a Jewish complaint; and by the outright anti-Semitism from some of the Fandom Wank commenters. (Yes, I know, they're Fandom Wank. They're still part of fandom.)
To elaborate:
mamadeb posted a complaint about Yuletide signups going live on Sukkot, a Jewish holiday. I read her tone as intended to be humorous, in a passive-aggressive way, but other people--including several on her friends list--read it as accusatory. She's said in comments that she didn't intend to accuse the Yuletide mods of deliberate malice, just carelessness. In the comments, but not in the original post, she also expresses a wish that the ficathon had a "more neutral name." In addition to the arguments in her comments, her post got picked up by Fandom Wank.I am disturbed by some of the objections to
mamadeb, and particularly by the nature of some of the responses on Fandom Wank. I'd like to make it clear that I'm not bothered by people who disagree with mamadeb's initial complaint. I do not, in fact, agree with her complaint about the timing of the signups. The signups were pre-announced and there's a two-week signup period with no penalty for signing up late in the period or reward for signing up early. The signup period is two weeks long precisely to allow people who have conflicts during that a period a long enough opening that they can find time to sign up. I also do not criticize people who read Mama Deb's tone as accusatory; as I said, I read it as intended to be humorous, but also, as I implied by "passive-aggressive," as not quite coming off that way. Several of her initial commenters suggested steps she could take to make sure Yuletide nominations didn't conflict with Jewish holidays in the future, and her dismissal of all of these did indeed rub me wrong.
Finally, I do not agree with her dismissive attitude towards paganism and Christian holidays in the comments. She's not the spokesperson I'd have picked, and I am probably not the one she would have picked, but nevertheless I am speaking out about the few items on which I do agree with her.
I am disturbed by the number of people who disclaim a connection between the term "Yuletide" and Christianity, or for that matter between "Christmas" and Christianity; by the initial Fandom Wank post's cavalier attitude towards the possibility of a Jewish complaint; and by the outright anti-Semitism from some of the Fandom Wank commenters. (Yes, I know, they're Fandom Wank. They're still part of fandom.)
To elaborate:
- Yuletide and Christianity
I am aware that "Yule" was originally a pagan term and it has been reclaimed by many neo-pagans for the winter solstice holiday. However, for several centuries now, it has been associated with the Christmas holiday, and the name of the Yuletide challenge is taken from a Christmas carol. I realize that for many people in the West, especially but not exclusively Christians, Christmas has become a secular holiday because it is associated with their national culture (hi, guys, I've been in the UK in December, you cannot convince me I am being American-centric here) and because it is recognized as a holiday by their secular governments. I know Jews and members of other religious minorities in the West who are not bothered by the terms "Yuletide" or "Secret Santa" and who have Christmas trees (and who set up huge fandom-crossing obscure fandom ficathons!) and who distinguish the cultural practice of Christianity from the religious practice of Christianity. I am not one of them, partly because so few Christians seem to have an understanding of Christianity as a cultural practice, or the ways in which they receive the privilege of a cultural default, even when they themselves are not religious or choose atheism or a different religion. Why should they have this understanding? Privilege is the headache they don't know they don't have.
I am going to be very explicit about this: I'm not just talking about this ficathon. I'm not asking for the name "Yuletide" to be changed. I think that would be a huge headache, to begin with, and at this point I even have positive associations with the name, because of my happy involvement with the challenge. But I am saying that "Yuletide"--whether in reference to this challenge or in general--is not nondenominational. It is not religiously neutral. It is not broadly inclusive.
And really, the important part of that last paragraph for me is the "in general." This is not about an attitude specific to fandom. This is about an attitude in the cultures from which Western media fans come.
And the amount of resistance to this concept--that Christianity is not everyone's default and it is not a neutral position--is what disturbs me in many responses. - I get the sense in this thread that some people think it's not really anti-Semitism if it just affects some Jews, not all of them. To be quite honest, this seems to me about the same reasoning as saying that forbidding French schoolgirls to wear veils isn't anti-Muslim because it only affects the really devout ones, or that forbidding black women in public offices in Florida to wear braids or dreads isn't racist because some black women like straightening their hair.
No, not all Jews turn off their computers on the Sabbath or on Sukkot. I don't. But that doesn't mean I am unaffected by the mockery of traditional Jewish customs. - Several of the comments on Fandom Wank, including the original post, were not so much anti-Semitic as Christian-centric. This is still, frankly, a problem. An inclusive society depends on recognizing that others are not like us and that their communities, folkways, traditions, and identities are valuable to them and innately worth preserving. The failure to realize this, or to recognize specific instances of exclusion, is privilege in action; it is generally motivated by ignorance rather than malice, but the ignorance is still hurting other people.
Comments I would place in this category include:- If mamadeb is so upset and bothered by Yuletide signups beginning on Sukkot (and Yuletide's name), why is she even bothering with Yuletide?
If it bothers her that much, then why be a part of it?
As at least two subsequent commenters did point out, it's not unreasonable to criticize an institution which excludes you. - Uhm, just curious, does anyone know why mamadeb has an issue with the term "Yuletide"? (No sarcasm, I really do want to know.) and several of the responses, expressing disbelief, contempt, indifference to the exclusion of Judaism and other religions, and--this may be my favorite--the idea that since the Christmas carol the challenge name came from was originally a pagan Welsh hymn, it's not really Christian, even though Wales was converted to Christianity in about the fifth century of the Common Era (a fact I found by about five minutes' Googling, and if you don't know what the Common Era is, you too can Google to find out) and the hymn has been used as a Christmas carol throughout the English-speaking world for at least two hundred years now.
- If mamadeb is so upset and bothered by Yuletide signups beginning on Sukkot (and Yuletide's name), why is she even bothering with Yuletide?
- ETA 9:17pm: I'm leaving this up because people responded to it, and it affected my mood, but mayatawi offered an explanation for the exchange here, so I retract the accusation of anti-Semitism. I still think the conversation was ill-advised, but I don't think there was any malice involved.END ETA
Comments which passed right over Christian-centric to anti-Semitic came up in this thread:
panthea: Uh, at a guess... because most non-Jews have never even heard of Sukkot, let alone know when it is?
Mamadeb waved the same persecution flag when sign-ups for the Muskrat Jamboree (tiny tiny slash con in Boston this year) opened on... some other Jewish holiday. I wanna say Rosh Hashanah, but that's just because it's fun to say.
mindset: My non-Jewish boyfriend's favorite Jewish holiday is Sukkot, just because he enjoys pronouncing it "suck it". He is a great big silly. :)
Do I have to explain what's wrong with this? Do I really have to explain what's so insulting about someone not just saying that Jewish holidays aren't well-known in the West, but implying that they're not worth knowing? Do I have to explain why it's exoticizing and insulting and just generally not okay to make fun of the name of Jewish holidays, or to take a holiday name and turn it into a sexual slur/insult? Do I really, really, really have to explain why someone saying "Suck it" instead of "Sukkot" isn't being a great big silly, he's being an asshole, and so is the person quoting this with approval?
Do I really?
ETA 9:17pm:mayatawi offers an explanation for the exchange here, so I retract the accusation of anti-Semitism. I still think the conversation was ill-advised, but I don't think there was any malice involved.
tl;dr paganism tangent
Yes! Hi, sorry, I've been reading these and not commenting because I didn't have anything useful to add since there's enough "me too"s about the dodginess of people's reactions, and I didn't want to derail the discussion.
But given that you started the topic... :) (and it's far enougn down the chain that it's unlikely to start a paralell "OMG paganism sucks" thread)
I think the issue is that people conflate paganism the actual, modern, practised religion, with the ubiquitous traces of the old pre-christian religion which are embedded in european culture and christianity but tend not to be taken very seriously by not-actual-pagans. Paganism may not have been the dominant religion for a Very Long Time, but like christianity it's such a part of the furniture that it's easy to take it's acceptance (in it's diminished form as folklore and tradition) for granted.(*)
Non pagans have an attitude of "This is a fun tradition but noone actually believes in it" while pagans can tend to be smug about how their religion doesn't have all the offensive wars and oppression that are "the only reason" people object to religion ie christianity. Both attitudes (while somewhat contradictory, and I'm sure the former irritates the heck out of pagans) give paganism this vibe of friendly inclusive harmlessness.
In the name of full disclosure, in the last few days I have had an arguent with a somewhat judgementally anti atheist pagan friend and done a bunch of research about viking paganism, so am seeing it as less friendly and harmless than I might otherwise :D
(*)Further tangent: I wonder if paganism osmosed it's way into european judaism at all? The only european jew I know very well celebrates easter and christmas, so she's probably not representative :)
Re: tl;dr paganism tangent
Hmm. This is exactly why, as a Christian, I like secularization: it serves to divorce the rich rituals of tradition from any specific set of beliefs (and, from my perspective, make room for genuine faith and a chance for the Holy Spirit to work). If only secularization wasn't so Christocentric, but could draw upon various religions more equally....
Re: tl;dr paganism tangent
Anyway, I think it would be great if multiple non-christian traditions and stuff became an accepted part of the cultural landscape as they seem to be in, say, India or Singapore. But it's very easy for non-majority religions/cultures to be seen as as quaint and exotic so that people "play" at engaging with them without taking them seriously, as a lot of people do with paganism. That is, it's not enough that people say "Happy hanukkah!", they have to have some understanding of what hanukkah means as a celebration of thankfulness and jewish freedom(*) in the same way that non-christians understand christmas's significance as the birthday of Jesus and a time of joy and giving (This last paragraph is me thinking out loud, it has no real point, sorry :))
(*)I think that's what hanukkah is about. I'm a pretty good example of the "before people have a good understanding of other religions" picture :)
Re: tl;dr paganism tangent
I'd probably agree with that, but I wouldn't see the separation of tradition and religion as the same as the separation of tradition and the specificity of belief. But then I'm an Episcopalian, and we're weird like that. We engage very strongly with traditions as an intrinsic part of our religious experience (we're a liturgical, sacramental church, with priests and masses and apostolic succession and all that) but we try to include a huge diversity of beliefs.
So my feeling is that just because something's secular doesn't mean it can't be spiritual. The difficulty is getting something which is both spiritual and inclusive in a world of Christian hegemony and, yeah, I think the best solution is pluralism. Your last ("thinking aloud") paragraph does address a concern with my position, but education would probably be better in a pluralistic world, plus its a premise of my metatheological approach that religion can never provide us with "one true meaning" and thus it is okay when they morph and adapt (from my Christian perspective, I'd call it the influence of the Holy Spirit).
Definition of secular (reply 1)
I will finish my reply on your other comment, where I think it follows on better....
Re: Definition of secular (reply 1)
Let me be clear: a religious pluralism which cannot embrace atheism is, in my mind, not truly a pluralism, or at least not a good one.
Re: tl;dr paganism tangent
Re: tl;dr paganism tangent
Which is why I complained about secularism's Christocentrism. I don't like Christian hegemony any more than anybody else.
And I don't need Christians to restore seders to their celebration of Easter to respect my culture;
I don't want Christianity to do this; I want secular culture to do thus. I want the cultural forms of all religions to be available to anyone who finds them spiritually fulfilling (and yes, able to be avoided by those who do not) without being automatically linked to systematized systems of belief (which I feel often miss the point and discourage actual spirituality from developing).
Problems with pluralism (reply 2)
Now I haven't been religious since I was a teenager, so my understanding of religious people's POV is all rather hypothetical. (My personal taste is for as little of the religious/spiritual in my life as possible, regardless of whether or not it belongs to any specific religion :))
But I think a lot of people want their cultural forms to be strongly linked to their systematized systems of belief, and would feel uncomfortable and incomplete using the forms of a different tradition, even if they don't have issues with that religion in particular (e.g. the way
I mean, I could be wrong. The nature of religion in modern society has changed dramatically in the past, perhaps one day there will be more of a disconnect between the core beliefs of a religion and the forms that express it, and more fluidity between different faiths. Personally I'm holding out for the day everyone else becomes an atheist, but I think that's even more unlikely :D
Re: tl;dr paganism tangent
Re: tl;dr paganism tangent