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Hey. I'm having a pretty bad post-con crash and dealing with some personal stuff that started coming down over the weekend, so I'll probably be even slower about responding to comments than usual.

I locked the Townhall on Vidding and Visibility notes after posting them because of some concerns about (ha) too much visibility. I'd like to make them public again, but only if the people cited are comfortable with the level of anonymity and the way I've represented them, and it's going to take me a while to check with everybody. In the meantime,

kassrachel has a public post here.

I'm going to try to get down panel reports first, because they'll suffer the most from delay and dimming of memory. I wanted to comment on the premieres of non-attending vidders, because they didn't get to judge by applause, "aw"s, or laughter, but my first several comments came out backhanded and/or zombie-like, so that will have to wait. But I recommend people check out

aycheb's "Scarlet Ribbons,"

charmax's "Tanglewood Tree",

keewick's "32" and "Sorry",

halcyon_shift's "Natural Blues", and

cherryice's "Ghosts (4)", all non-Premieres-Show premiering vids by nonattending vidders that are just as strong as the best of Premieres.

harriet_spy has an interesting take on the Vids That Push The Envelope panel, which ... hmm. Her perceptions of the panel don't exactly match mine, and I disagree with several things in the comments. But it's worth reading. I'm not sure it will come out right because of my current zombie-like state, but I don't feel like I'm anxious about changes in vidding as an artform (whereas I am definitely anxious about changes in visibility). I'm excited! I think the potential for new and different vids is awesome. I'm excited by the new kinds of vids I'm seeing, I'm excited by the new vidders I've discovered, I'm excited by having needs met that haven't been fulfilled before, I'm excited by seeing things I hadn't even thought to want before. Some people at the panel spoke of how what they wanted to see as viewers or achieve as vidders had expanded over time, but for me, honestly, I feel less like what I want has changed (that was probably the first two Vividcons I went to) than that what I want is finally happening.

cesperanza spoke (at this panel? some other time at the con?) about how, looking at vids, she felt like she was watching TV "as we would make it--and it's better than the way the mainstream makes it," but this was the first year I had a glimpse of that. And that relates, obviously, to the different ways that people define "we," as well as our different wants, and relates to some of the issues I have with

cesperanza's own premiere, "Supersmart."

Vidding is so intertwined with slash fandom, and that means different things to hardcore slashers, people who have slash as a sexual identity, people for whom the presence of slash indicates us, and people who enjoy slash sometimes but who don't see it as inextricable with their personal or fannish identity. Maybe I am simplifying? I don't want to misrepresent people. But I think there are a lot of people who see slash on the screen and that makes them basically happy, that makes them feel represented, that fulfills their desires, and I don't just mean their sexual desires. Whereas for me it's not enough for me to see women's art on the screen: I need to see actual women. I need women to be present in the text, as well as reshaping it. I need new stories, or old stories brought out, I need marginalized stories centered, I need the world re-centered on women (white women and women of color) and people of color (women of color and men of color) and queer people and slash stories (which are not the same thing. I think? Maybe? Sometimes?) I need more.

And I'm getting more. This excites me and satisfies me and makes me happy in ways I can't even say.

And some of the more isn't for me, doesn't do what I am interested in doing, but I'm glad that it exists for other people and also I think that it enables some of what I want or don't yet know to want. Creative ferment is exciting, it's the sign of a living, changing artform, it makes me so happy that it's going on.

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I think it was at my first Escapade that I attended a panel which related somehow to privacy and visibility. (It might have also been about lj? I'm not sure anymore; it was probably 2001 or 2002...) Anyway, someone made the point that people aren't always comfortable having their lj usernames identified in panel reports. It hadn't even occurred to me that that might be the case, but since then I generally don't use people's names in my panel notes, though I often ID the moderator by username. But mileage clearly varies on this as on everything...

Like you, I'm excited rather than troubled by the expansions I perceive in the vidding world. Part of this may be because I'm pretty certain that the things I personally like will continue to be created; another part of it is probably because my tastes have broadened over my years in vid fandom, so having more of a smorgasbord of things to watch makes me happy.

I'm fascinated by your assertion that vidding is intertwined with slash fandom; I mean, it is for me, because slash fandom is how I came into fandom and active fannishness, but surely there are other vidders and vid fans who came in to vidding not via slash. Still, I really appreciate your point that all of this reads differently, and has different meanings, for people who have slash as a sexual identity, people for whom "slash" means "us," people who enjoy it but don't find it inextricable to their identity (and presumably people who actively dislike it, too.)

I need women to be present in the text, as well as reshaping it.

That's a gorgeous way to phrase that; thank you. I'm struggling with this a little bit, because in a lot of ways my needs are more on the other end of the spectrum. I want to see women's work, I want to see how we reshape the characters and their stories -- that's what really gets me going, on all kinds of levels. And I like having women in the text, too! but it doesn't seem to be the same kind of need for me that I think intellectually that it should be. So that's something I'm ruminating on a lot at the moment.

But regardless, I'm happy that you're beginning to get the "more" that you need. :-)

Creative ferment is exciting, it's the sign of a living, changing artform, it makes me so happy that it's going on.

Yes yes yes yes yes yes.

t hadn't even occurred to me that that might be the case, but since then I generally don't use people's names in my panel notes, though I often ID the moderator by username. But mileage clearly varies on this as on everything...

I don't think it's an issue for most panel reports, which is why I initially posted publically, but people were discussing closeting and/or real life identities in possibly identifiable terms. I felt really bad and really dumb when I realized I might have outed people in a post where I was cautioning people about the effects of outing. I'm really grateful that the people who might have been most injured have been generous about the mistake.

I'm fascinated by your assertion that vidding is intertwined with slash fandom; I mean, it is for me, because slash fandom is how I came into fandom and active fannishness, but surely there are other vidders and vid fans who came in to vidding not via slash.

Well, it's the historical basis of vidding -- the earliest vids are slash vids. And it's still a strong current -- sometimes the dominant current? I suppose it depends which part of the ocean you swim in.

And I don't want to disrespect my community's history or make slashers feel excluded or like they're not going to get what *they* want and need from fandom. I am of multiple opinions about this, like everything. :) ("Two Jews, three opinions.") I mean, in some senses I feel like I am in the position of the dominant majority who comes into the minority space and complains about not being dominant there -- because slash may be common and even a default in some fannish circles, but those circles exist within a society that does not value the slash aesthetic even when they recognize it exists. But I feel like -- it's not just that I want het romance, although sometimes I like it, I want f/f slash, I want gen, I want women's work, I want feminist work, I want things that I would argue are devalued by mainstream society *too*. And I realize that we all have an economics of scarcity with personal time and attention, but I don't think that fandom runs on an economy of scarcity, I think it runs on an economy of generosity. I think there's room for all of us. When I say that I'm having more of my needs fulfilled, I don't want to be saying or implying that other people's needs are unimportant or that what other fans get out of slash and vidding is unimportant. I don't want to take a bigger slice of the pie and give other fans a smaller slice. I want to bake more pies.

But regardless, I'm happy that you're beginning to get the "more" that you need. :-)

Thank you!

I want to bake more pies.

YES. That's it exactly.

\o/!

I need to see actual women. I need women to be present in the text, as well as reshaping it. I need new stories, or old stories brought out, I need marginalized stories centered, I need the world re-centered on women (white women and women of color) and people of color (women of color and men of color) and queer people and slash stories

Yes yes, so much yes. I've heard a lot of people describe vidding as not political but for me it so so is, for just those reasons (as well as for the turning consumption into production DIY one). I understand how slash vids, etc, fit into that category but for me they're not enough; I am so happy about all the critical, meta, feminist/queer/antiracist vids that seem to be coming out now.

I keep fantasizing about a political/feminist-sf vidshow at WisCon...

I understand how slash vids, etc, fit into that category but for me they're not enough;

yes! I don't want to eliminate slash vids, or male character-focused character studies; I think there is room for what we all need in fandom; but those vids alone are not all that I need.

I keep fantasizing about a political/feminist-sf vidshow at WisCon...

yeah, I wanted to do one this year, but the people I talked to didn't have time/resources this year. Maybe 2009.

Did I meet you at WisCon? I've only been once, this year, but it left me pretty determined to get back. I have no clue how the tech stuff could be made to work but I bet if we planned early it could happen... :)

Yes, briefly. I owe you email, but in the meantime, by the way, feel free to quote anything publically posted -- that's why it's public. :)

Thank you! I think of public posts that way but I don't like to assume, especially when it comes to assigning students.

If you email I hope you'll tell me what name I met you under -- I think I know, but I'm not sure. :)

Vee and I were talking this morning about doing a vidshow at Wiscon this year...

I know the increase in technological sophistication in vids has certainly caused some ambivalent feelings for me. One of the best things about fandom is that there is no line between producer and consumer -- writers read, readers write, anyone can contribute to the infrastructure if they want to, anyone can provide critique or squee if they want to... but not anyone can make a vid. It's always been one of the most skill-intensive and labor-intensive of fannish pursuits, but every new achievement just sets the bar higher and higher. I sometimes feel like the line between producer and consumer is solidifying, and that takes away some of my enjoyment.

I wasn't there, obviously, but I get the sense that the panel was more about pushing the envelope in terms of subject matter or critical approaches, which is another matter entirely. But I just thought I would toss this out there anyway.

not anyone can make a vid

I think it's definitely really intimidating to make a vid, but having recently developed the basic skills I *do* think anyone can do it, and there are pretty effective vids out there from people who just get an idea and wrestle withe their computer until a vid emerges (this one, for example (BSG) (http://chaila43.livejournal.com/16489.html)).

I mean, I ended up with my first vid (http://heyiya.livejournal.com/165482.html) in the Envelope panel at VVC (not that I think anyone was that into it, but that's neither here nor there; I wasn't at VVC to know anyway, and it wasn't really made with the audience of vidders in mind). Vidding is actually the first time I've felt able to cross that producer/consumer line, even though I know I can't go near the technical amazingness of so many VVC vids.

I actually think that the line between consumer and producer isn't solidifying and if anything is getting ever looser in the fannish community and in society as a whole. The availability of the tools is greater. You can make a darn good vid with Windows Movie Maker or iMovie and while it lacks special effects I think that that can be exactly what is needed to figure out basics of putting together a solid, well thought out vid and can teach you to be very attuned to the motion and color and shapes that exist as filmed. Most of the foundation of my vidding skills came from my first 30 vids all of which were VCR vids and which had even fewer options than even the most basic of free video editors. And some of those thirty are some of my strongest vids to this day. Source is available for free if you have any internet connection, a lot of patience, and are willing to risk torrents. I think individuals may become increasingly daunted as things progress, but I also see folks being increasingly inspired. And judging from the overwhelming number of vidders in most of the fandoms I keep any kind of track of there is so much less of a divide than when I started that it's hard to imagine (and frankly, hard for me to get inspired to vid.)

IAWTC.

But not all readers can write stories either. I know I can't. I mean, I actually tried once, to participate more and feel more included. I still remember when I was talking about fanfic preferences once being told to shut up because I wasn't writing any or contributing -- that was during the fun time of the TS fanfic crit flamewars and I had just posted that in general I didn't like the emphasis much fanfic put on the "guide" and invented powers, and the climate then was that even that general opinion without any examples was seen as discouraging, so I got that response to shut up. Anyway, I wanted to be more part of the community and contribute, but my feeble attempt at fanfic was more or less a horrible exposition dump for the cool AU worldbuilding idea I had and I abandoned that quickly.

The problem wasn't the technical, I'm fairly sure that if I had had an actual story to tell, I would have figured out how to make it readable at least, but I don't really imagine stories in my head. So I had this AU idea, and these characters, but I just couldn't figure out how to come up with a plot to make readers want to learn about my worldbuilding efforts. I made all kinds of written and visual documentation, and alternate histories, and fake documents for that AU, and tried and tried to construct something to make it into a story (I even read some creative writing books in my desperation), but I just can't come up with plots.

I can't make vids either, because I have having no aptitude for that kind of visual language either. It would also be a problem that I don't think the programs would run on my old computer, if there are even any that run on linux, so there are additional hurdles compared to me failing at fanfic, but I think it's becoming cheaper and easier than it used to be when video recorders where still super expensive.

I think with the other fannish arts the initial investments are lower, because any fan with access to a computer can produce and post text, and for fanart you need to throw in some art materials (wildly varying in cost) and a scanner, but simple one have become cheaper, and even graphic tablets cost less now than they used to, so it is easier to just try. But you have to have both inspiration and learn difficult things for all of them, especially if you don't want to suck.

I haven't run the numbers for this year the way I did for another (and someone else did for last year), but this VVC certainly felt more representative to me. (The fannish embrace of DW's Martha certainly helped there.) That makes me happy. Most of the Envelope vids made me happy in one way or another. Perhaps I was only imagining the undercurrent of anxiety I picked up at the panel, but it was surprising to me, which is why I mentioned it.

And I suspect that changes in the artform and in visibility are intertwined in even more than the obvious ways. I have to say I'd be more optimistic writing a summary judgment brief asserting a fair use defense for almost any of the Envelope vids than for even the shiniest of straightforward shipping vids. And vids just look so much more ready for prime time now...

Whereas for me it's not enough for me to see women's art on the screen: I need to see actual women. I need women to be present in the text, as well as reshaping it.

Yes. This.

Re. "Supersmart": It's like you are IN MY BRAIN! Like Holly Hunter and William Hurt from Broadcast News! I've definitely had worse things in my brain. *g*

Seriously, I'd been wondering how I could talk about the way this vid made me feel -- bewildered and disappointed, and maybe a bit angry -- without sounding like I'm coming down on the people who loved the vid, had been in on this particular conversation, and for whom this vid was made. (I mean, clearly, not all vids are for all people.) But now you've said it better than any way I could so I don't have to. Yay!

I need to see actual women. I need women to be present in the text, as well as reshaping it.

Yes. This.

Re: "Supersmart": I felt like I didn't even get into my issues with it! I want to do a post on it and

lim's "Us," which I see as making similar arguments, which I still disagree with vehemently, but which makes its particular argument clearly.

I didn't know you disliked the vid! It actually made me very angry. I talked about it with

renenet, who didn't agree with me AT ALL, and

fan_eunice, who didn't agree either, but without the all caps, and with

laurashapiro, who posed me some interesting counterquestions. I think I probably would have been less frustrated or angered by the vid if it hadn't been the last vid in the show, which is not the vidder's decision and which is perhaps unfair to factor in.

I saw the vid last night, had some interesting conversation with Katie and Eli about it, and I have to admit that if Katie hadn't told me about it at length, I would have found it impossible to parse, and also frustrating and a bit annoying. As it is, I disagree rather fiercely with Ces' argument. But that shouldn't surprise you.

If I hadn't read an explanation before watching it, I wouldn't have understood it either. I mean, watching on my own I'd probably thought it said only something like "SGA women are kind of cool, but the guys are more awesome, lovable and also adorkable, so there are fan vids and websites for them but not for the women characters" or something like that.

Sorry to butt in here, but could you point me to the explanation of the vid you read? I'm in SGA fandom as a McShep slasher and yet all I could take from the vid was basically what you said here, that SGA women are kickass, but the guys have *personality* so the super smart women who make up fandom choose to focus their talents on the latter.

Er, iirc it was in several places that I've seen people post their interpretations, some f-locked but one I can find again was [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com] here:
http://kassrachel.livejournal.com/640595.html#cutid13

Thank you.

I'd love to see the vid you'd do or collaborate on or commission (that's the lovely thing about vidders being in assorted fannish auctions, you can make them do your bidding)that would make your version of the corresponding argument about what you get and what you want to get out of fandom. I think it would be fascinating and illuminating, not the least because it's completely different from where I stand -- I'm closer to

lim and

cesperanza although for me the representation of the feminine, even secondarily, is even less important for my enjoyment and identification. I adore vids that state positions (clearly) and would love to see yours because it's obviously one that a lot of folks want articulated.

But I think there are a lot of people who see slash on the screen and that makes them basically happy, that makes them feel represented, that fulfills their desires, and I don't just mean their sexual desires. Whereas for me it's not enough for me to see women's art on the screen: I need to see actual women.

Oh, I forgot to say: I think these aren't necessarily in opposition. I think there is something about me that is fundamentally slasher--I zeroed in on texts with subtext as a kid well before I got what was going on, there is little that can make me purely happier than a good bout of slashiness on the screen. But that's just one aspect of my desires! I want and need to see women out there in source and in fannish productions, too. (I wish more femslash pinged for me, then I could get it all in one package all the time...) I resist any attempt to package slashers or vidders as "women who are content to express themselves through reshaping images of men," and I violently object to the idea that slashing inherently makes male characters more feminine, and that this would be an inherent good. So I guess I am not really in agreement with either "Us" or what you might call a strong reading of "Supersmart," either.

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