thuviaptarth | Vidding 101

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vidding

Vidding 101

I should probably post this to vidder, but I am too embarrassed, because I feel like I should have figured it out already fter reading the A&E Guide five zillion times. I am hoping one of you will take pity on me and answer here anyway.

The problem is (I mean, the problem apart from not being able to tell where the beat is, and Premiere crashing on me like a really bad pun, and ...), it feels like I'm doing a lot of processing on the files I rip from DVDs and I can't shake the feeling that I really shouldn't have to do so much to recent footage to get it viddable. If I do, that's cool -- I'm doing it, I've done it. I'm just terrified I'm doing extra and unnecessary processing and degrading visual quality because I don't know what I'm doing and am too freaked out to be able to tell anymore whether one picture is better than another.

So, I'm ripping the Supernatural DVDs (I know you're shocked), and this is what I'm doing:

I rip VOB files from the DVDs.
I run the VOBs through DGIndex (usually I create one index for each DVD) to get D2V indices.
I create AVS files for the indices which look roughly like this:
```
MPEG2Source("C:/Thuvia Ptarth/spn2.1.d2v",cpu=4,upconv=true)
Telecide(order=1, post=4,show=false) 
Decimate(mode=1, threshold=1.0)
ConvertToRGB32()
```
--except for when, just to make me extra crazy, the DVDs switch from Top Field First to Bottom Field First for a disc or two in Season Two, completely destroying the false sense of confidence I gained from anticipating the Pilot and first disc might be in a different frame rate than the other discs, but. Anyway.

So, um. Is that right? Should I be doing something different? Should I be doing less? Should I be doing more? Should I be going for a particular frame rate or just converting the odd files to whatever frame rate most of the files are in?

Help?

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Should I be doing less?
See, I don't know about this "should" business because it all looks really complicated to me and I'm not sure if each of these lines serve a really useful function?

Could well just be I am lazy, but all I usually do is

MPEG2Source("file location", false)

And that's about it (false being kill audio). If I use different framerate sources, I add the AssumeFPS line.

I export using the "no fields" option in Premiere, neither top nor bottom, and on the occasion that the interlacing looks really off, I use the TomsMoComp(1,5,1) script and that usually smoothes things over.

So this is obviously the lazy and "you didn't actually fix things properly" way of doing it, and I'm sure I'm breaking a lot of rules and Ian will be all gritting his teeth and shaking his head if he reads this, but hey, the end product looks all right from my end and that's pretty much all I care about.

Er... not sure if that was helpful. Just letting you know how I go about it. :)

See, I don't know about this "should" business because it all looks really complicated to me and I'm not sure if each of these lines serve a really useful function?

You and me both! I mean, I can say what each line is *supposed* to be doing, but I am still hopelessly confused about whether I need to be doing it.

MPEG2Source("file location", false)

Huh. So you don't even index the file? I actually started off there, but I got a much smoother preview in Premiere when I added indexing.

Oh, sorry, yes I also run it through DGIndex first. But once the avs file is created, I don't usually add more lines of code to it unless I absolutely have to.

I do all three steps, but my AVS file is just MPEG2Source("C:/shati/omganepisode.d2v"). I think Telecide and Decimate in combination will reduce your frame rate, which will reduce video quality if you don't need them, but it sounds like you do (they're for interlaced footage, iirc). I am surprised that SPN is interlaced, though. Can you see interlacing or does DGIndex just tell you it's interlaced?

I can see interlacing on the titles, though they could just be shot differently, and occasionally I thought I saw interlacing on scenes in Premiere. But most of the time I can't see any interlacing in either Premiere or VirtualDubMod; DGIndex just says that it's not 100% FILM. I tried "Forced Film" and I tried "None" with deinterlacing, and the latter option looked better, so I went with that.

If it's a non-100% percentage of film (or if it's 100% ... basically, if it doesn't say "INTERLACED" in a cold angry unmovable way), I force film and then avoid the avisynth anti-interlacing scripts, because I don't like how the scripts make my footage look. I have no idea if my method works better than yours, though. I'm telling you as a data point, not as somebody who knows what she's talking about. *g*

FWIW, that's pretty much what I do. What the scripts look like varies from source to source, for me. So, for example, the scripts for my latest vid look like this:

mpeg2source("F:\Gilmore Girls\scripts\GG1x01-11.d2v",cpu=4)
Telecide(order=1,guide=0)
Decimate(cycle=5,mode=2)
ConvertToRGB32()
AssumeFPS(24)

For me, at least, the last line is crucial because Premiere Pro 1.5 doesn't like 23.97whatever footage.

On the other hand, the Due South footage needed a lot more tweaking, at least for "Out Here," so I ended up with:

mpeg2source("D:\due South\scripts and clips\S3 eps 1-4.d2v")
Telecide(order=1,guide=1)
Decimate(cycle=5,mode=2)
#ColorYUV(gain_u=5)
#ColorYUV(gain_v=-5)
#ColorYUV(cont_y=20)
#Tweak(sat=1.2)
#Tweak(cont=1.2)
#msharpen(threshold=8,strength=80,highq=true)
ConvertToRGB32()
AssumeFPS(24)

I checked the look of the filtered source in VDub (verdict: garbage in garbage out, but at least it's higher-contrast and color-corrected garbage), commented out the filters for vidding purposes, turned the filters back on once the vid was basically done, and did a final check on color and contrast on the filtered version before final export.

I was all excited about the commenting out ("Maybe that's what's making things crash!") until I reread it and realize you left in the deinterlacing, just took out the color corrections. (Can't you combine all the ColorYUV and Tweak arguments into one line per command? Or were you just playing around with how different combinations looked?)

*sigh* I think the crashing is a combination of Vista and the number of AVS files, and I'm doomed.

But okay. I'm slightly reassured that other people are also confused by the entire question and/or do lots of processing.

I'm totally lurking to spy on y'all's scripts. I've asked myself all these questions before, too.

Sorry I don't have more to add. I generally work with Alias, which doesn't need much correction, although the seasons differ in their interlacing.

Heh--you know what would be nice? A show by show set of scripts. Because they all do differ...Hmm...

...you left in the deinterlacing, just took out the color corrections.

Yes, because taking out the deinterlacing changes the number of frames; if you comment out the deinterlacing (or forget to put it in) and then put it in later, your edits are no longer in the right place (because Premiere counts by frames). Sadly, I know this from personal experience.

(Can't you combine all the ColorYUV and Tweak arguments into one line per command? Or were you just playing around with how different combinations looked?)

I assume they can all go on one line, but it's easier for me to think about them as independent variables, and separate lines helps me keep track of what I'm doing; and yes, there's the additional plus of being able to comment out individual lines to see the change more clearly.

As for the number of .avs files, 8-10 seems to be about the limit for my system (and that's my new souped-up system); the one time I tried more, Premiere crashed constantly. On the other hand, it doesn't seem to care much about the SIZE of the .avs files; my most recent vid had 11-12 eps per .d2v, and Premiere only choked a few times when I'd been rendering on the fly with more abandon than usual. I can't speak to the effects of Vista, however.

I do quite a bit of processing for some vids and almost none for others; I did much less processing in the Due South scripts for "In the Mirror," for instance, and Serenity needed some resizing but almost no other processing because it's so insanely pretty already. I'm not planning to do much filtering of BtVS, either, because I'd rather tweak levels on a clip-by-clip basis within Premiere.

I don't have much experience with TFF/BFF shifting source, but TIVTC (http://bengal.missouri.edu/~kes25c/) is a different IVTC process that might help. (scroll down to find it -- there's a bunch of good stuff on that page)

You call TFM and TDecimate instead of Telecide and Decimate, and TFM has a d2v parameter that will "analyze to see if there are any illegal field order changes and optionally set the order parameter using the field order of the d2v file." (see docs for more info)

Also note there's an updated version of the A&E guide here (http://www.animemusicvideos.org/guides/avtechbeta/). That's where I learned about TIVTC. This guide's been "beta" for a while, and I've been hoping Zarxrax will finish it.

Edit: I just noticed the sources mentioned. (Supernatural, Gilmore Girls, Due South) Are these TV shows really shot in 24fps and telecined? I thought they'd be shot in 30fps for TV. Are 2 out of every 5 frames interlaced as seen in the left column here (http://www.animemusicvideos.org/guides/avtechbeta/video2_2.htm), or is every frame interlaced?

Oh, wow, that is tremendously helpful! I haven't seen the new version of the page or the AMVApp before, and I'll check them out.

Um, I think I see occasional but not universal interlacing, but even where it exists, it's much, much less obvious than on the examples in the AMV Guide.

The SPN pilot is shot in 24fps and telecined, but DGIndex tells me the rest of the episodes are 29.97 fps.

As always, be careful when installing a newer AMVApp/DGIndex, since the d2v format has changed over time and newer code may not work with work-in-progress or old projects with different d2v files.

I don't usually listen to DGIndex, not because it's wrong, but because I can usually figure out what's going on with the footage I use. ^_^; And yeah, interlacing can be hard to notice sometimes in low-motion scenes.

I asked because if every frame is interlaced, the footage could be 60 fields per second. I don't know if much is shot like this, but I encounter it sometimes in videogame footage with a high framerate. In that case I'd leave it at 29.97fps/interlaced, and perhaps deinterlace at some point, depending on if I'm outputting to PC monitor or TV.

I'd been warned about that and thought I'd avoided it by upgrading individual apps before beginning this project, but apparently not, so I downgraded again. I'm playing around with TDeint, though.

I don't think it's 60fps.

Well if you've upgraded DGIndex and DGDecode.dll, AMVApp might downgrade DGDecode, but I'm not sure. It's been a while since I've used it. Good luck. :)

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